There are so many wrong things in the Hindu scriptures. How would you justify these? eg. castism. Rebirth is one of those.

The concept of rebirth is a deliberate attempt by the rulers to justify their exploitation of down trodden sections of the society.

@Olly

I hope u people have bothered to read the article !

Apart from quoting the Hindu scripture,I have also stated the view of three other gentlemen namely Emerson,Socrates and Tolstoy.

No need to inform you that these were rare souls who were not only great thinkers but also owners of great mind,having knowledge of many fields.

What’s the point in raising doubt over the views of these gentlemen?

@Milind

What’s so wrong about rebirth?

What casteism has to do with rebirth?

I expect you to make yourself more clear,stating reasons that make rebirth one among many wrongs in Hindu scriptures.

Well, I am only interested in rebirth.Therefore,please don’t discuss anything outside the issue at hand !

Arvind
The concept of rebirth has been derived to justify the present order of exploitation of a man by man. The rulers have coined this concept so as to satisfy the people that if you are suffering, it is due to acts of your last birth. You serve us, you will be in a good position in your next birth.

@Nitesh

I have taken note of your view.Let me state that what you have stated has to do nothing with rebirth.

It has nothing to do with ”exploitation of down trodden sections of the society”.

Anyway, I am interested in knowing your reasons in support of your view although I feel that they will not be in tune with essence of the article.

Rebirth is not part and parcel of socio-economic considerations.It’s just a phenomenon on par with other natural laws governing the functioning of universe,albeit not in explicit manner.It’s still a very mysterious affair.

@Alexandre

I honour your view.But my friend you are absolutely wrong.All the three exist.

It’s a flawed view that these are instruments to divide and rule. How will you feel if I say that science is a curse ?

@ All the participants

I have located a brilliant lecture on this issue by Sri Aurobindo.He has discussed in length all the aspects associated with these wonderful and mysterious phenomenon called rebirth.

I will like all of you to have a look at the views expressed in this article.That will help all of you to be at ease with my views expressed in my article.It will also help all of you in understanding the issue with all its intricacies.


http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/auro/auro_rebirth.asp

@Milind

I beg to differ with your views as it’s mainly a stereotyped view so often expressed by the Marxist thinkers.

Like to draw your attention towards a simple logic.Just apply it at this very moment and you will realize why rebirth is a great phenomenon.

What will happen if you are going to steal someone’s else watch?You will be sent to jail or for that matter beaten blue and black by the real owner.In other words,the set of wrong actions will always produce bad result. The same logic governs the rebirth.

If you are committing crime one after another then remember quite well that you will be punished sooner or later.One can never escape the consequences of his/her good and bad actions.

@Milind

Misuse of the law does not mean that law itself is bad.

@Alexandre

There is only one God.We call it by a different name.

Like to quote words of one famous Hindu saint : ”the water called by Muslims as pani,by Hindus jal,by Christians water and by scientist H2O HOH) are the same thing.Likewise God is the same experience even if you called by different names Allah, Eswar,Jehova etc’.

How can you call rebirth a phenomenon when there is no scientific logic to support it. It is not stereotype view. It's the scientific view. BTW why can't the exploiters understand that they will be punished for their wrong doings?

@Milind

Whether one knows law or not the truth is that law exists or operates.Your ignorance about the law cannot mean the absence of law.Same is the case with exploiters.

I hope you visited the like provided me.The answer whether it’s phenomenon or not is given there.

Some Scientific Proof Or Scientific Logic:


Thomas Huxley, the famous English biologist, thought that reincarnation was a plausible idea and discussed it in his book Evolution and Ethics and other Essays. The most detailed collections of personal reports in favor of reincarnation have been published by Professor Ian Stevenson, from the University of Virginia, in books such as Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation and ”Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects Volume 1: Birthmarks” and ”Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects Volume 2: Birth Defects and Other Anomalies”.

Stevenson spent over 40 years devoted to the study of children who have apparently spoken about a past life. In each case, Professor Stevenson methodically documented the child’s statements. Then he identified the deceased person the child allegedly identified with, and verified the facts of the deceased person’s life that matched the child’s memory. He also matched birthmarks and birth defects to wounds and scars on the deceased, verified by medical records such as autopsy photographs.[49][50]

A boy in Beirut spoke of being a 25-year-old mechanic, thrown to his death from a speeding car on a beach road. According to multiple witnesses, the boy provided the name of the driver, the exact location of the crash, the names of the mechanic’s sisters and parents and cousins, and the people he went hunting with – all of which turned out to match the life of a man who had died several years before the boy was born, and who had no apparent connection to the boy’s family.[51]

Stevenson believed that his strict methods ruled out all possible ”normal” explanations for the child’s memories. However, it should be noted that a significant majority of Professor Stevenson’s reported cases of reincarnation originate in Eastern societies, where dominant religions often permit the concept of reincarnation. Following this type of criticism, Stevenson published a book on European cases suggestive of reincarnation.[52]

There are many people who have investigated reincarnation and come to the conclusion that it is a legitimate phenomenon, such as Peter Ramster, Dr. Brian Weiss, Dr. Walter Semkiw, and others. Professor Stevenson, in contrast, published dozens of papers in peer-reviewed journals.[53]

Some skeptics, such as Paul Edwards, have analyzed many of these accounts, and called them anecdotal.[54] Philosophers like Robert Almeder, having analyzed the criticisms of Edwards and others, suggest that the gist of these arguments can be summarized as ”we all know it can’t possibly be real, so therefore it isn’t real” - an argument from personal incredulity.[55]

The most obvious objection to reincarnation is that there is no evidence of a physical process by which a personality could survive death and travel to another body, and researchers such as Professor Stevenson recognize this limitation.[56]

Another objection is that most people do not remember previous lives. Possible counter-arguments are that not all people reincarnate, or that most people do not have memorable deaths. The vast majority of cases investigated at the University of Virginia involved people who had met some sort of violent or untimely death.[57]

Some skeptics explain that claims of evidence for reincarnation originate from selective thinking and the psychological phenomena of false memories that often result from one’s own belief system and basic fears, and thus cannot be counted as empirical evidence. But other skeptics, such as Dr Carl Sagan, see the need for more reincarnation research.[58]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

Rectified Version:

@Alexandre

There is only one God.We call it by different names.

Like to quote words of one famous Hindu saint : ”The water called by Muslims as pani,by Hindus jal,by Christians water and by scientist H2O (HOH) are the same thing.Likewise God is the same experience even if you know him by different names Allah, Eswar,Jehova etc”.

IS REINCARNATION A RELIGIOUS FANTASY?

March 21, 2005 by from-the-work-of-dr–pasricha




One of the most common issues of arguments of skeptics regarding reincarnation is that the case of children who claims to remember their previous lives comes from cultures or communities whose people believe in reincarnation. Thus they try to rationalize that it is a kind of fantasy which arises from hereditary belief.

The other day in one of the article in Times of India, Sukhwant Singh challenged why so far there are not any case from Moslem community. Thanks to Dr. Satwant Pasricha, Head of Department of Clinical Psycology, NIMHANS, who has found few cases, which occured among Sunni Moslems who, guided by their religious teachings, do not believe in reincarnation. (Some Shiite Moslem communities do endorse the idea of reincarnation)

In India, Dr. Satwant K. Pasricha (along with Dr. Ian Stenenson of University of Virginia) has investigated over 400 cases. Most of these cases occurred in the religious communities of Hindus, Sikhs, and Jains, who believe in reincarnation; a few case also occurred among Sunni Moslems who do not believe in reincarnation. A change in religion of varying degree has been reported in some of these cases. A change has been considered a minor change if it occurred in cases wherein a child claimed to remember the life of a person who belonged to slightly different religion (from Hindu to Jain or Sikh and vice versa). There are also the cases wherein children remembered having belonged to a religion in the previous life that was strikingly different from their present one. For example, a Hindu child who remembers having been a Moslem in the previous life and vice versa is considered as a case of major change in religion.

An analysis of 400 cases revealed that 26 subjects were Moslems who remembered having been Moslems in the previous life (19 caes) or Hindus who remembered having been Moslems (7 cases). There were seven cases of Moslems where no change in religion was reported. These case reports have been published in NIMHANS Journal, April 1998 issue, pp 93-100) and also submitted to the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research for publication, says Dr. Pasricha.

Case of Nasruddin Shah: Nasruddin was born in Allahganj, a town of District Shaharanpur, UP, around April 1962. His parents were Gulsher and Bhaggo Shah. The family were sunni Moslems and belonged to lower socio economic class. Nasruddin began to speak at about the age of one, and he was about 2, when he first mentioned a previous life. He said that he was a Thakur and that his money was buried “under the door”. He gradually gave more details, which included the descriptions of a quarrel that led to his death in the previous life. He said that his own son was among the murderers. One day an elephant came from Phargana (a village about 9-10 kilometers from Allahganj) to Allahganj. Nasruddin said that the elephant was his. Word about Nasruddin’s claims and recognition of the elephant reached Phargana. A son and the widow of one Hardevbaksh Singh, a Thakur, then came to Allahganj to visit Nasruddin. Nasruddin is said to have recognized them by giving their relationships without mentioning their names.

Nasruddin’s statements matched events in the life and death of Hardevbaksh Singh of Phargana. Hardevbaksh Singh was a landlord who lived in Phargana. He was killed in a scuffle on March 21, 1961, when he was about 70-75 years old. The quarrel leading to his death occured over the issue of Hadevbaksh Singh’s cattle trespassing into someone’s fields. The dispute has occured between Hardevbaksh Singh and his distant cousins; but some outsiders also came in, and they allegedly attacked and killed Hardevbaksh Singh. One of Hardevbaksh Singh’s son had been the member of the group attacking him; this was a particularly obscure detail, not known outside the village.

Nasruddin’s Unusual Behaviour: In addition to his statements about a previous life, Nasruddin displayed certain behaviour that accorded with the behaviour of a Thakur but that was unusual for his poor present circumstances. For example, he refused to eat food on a plate used by someone else and refused to drink from someone else’s glass. This behaviour persisted till the age of four. He also had other behavioural features of “Thakur Snobbery” that lasted till the age of 13-14 years, much beyond his cognitive memories. For example, he would not collect cow dung for fuel, a task readily accepted by his older brother or other children in the community. Nasruddin refused to eat beef from the very young age, although other family members ate it; he did eat mutton. He would not accompany his father to the masque or say Moslem prayers, which the other family members did. Although his parents observerd Ramzan reguraly, Nasaruddin would not join them in fasting; he would sometimes even make fun and ridicule them for fasting.

Nasruddin’s Birthmarks: Nasruddin had prominents birthmarks that corresponded to the wounds inflicted on the body of Hardevbaksh Singh as per the post-mortem report. In the context of the birthmarks, Dr. Ian Stevenson has published a longer report in this case[1].

Case of Nagina: Nagina was born in October 1990 in a town in District Farrukhabad, U.P. Her father, Amaruddin, was a Tonga driver. The family belonged to the sect of Sunni Moslems who did not believe in reincarnation. They were the members of the middle lower socioeconomic class. When Nagina was a little over one year old and before she had acquired speech, she used to try to convey something through gestures. She would make a gesture of striking a match and pointing it to her head. This behaviour started when one of Amaruddin’s aunts, who was visiting them, asked for some oil to massage her head. Nagina brought a bottle with kerosene in it. The aunt said with surprise that she had asked for mustard oil and asked what she would do with kerosene. Nagina then showed her, through the gesture, how she (in the previous life) had poured kerosene on her head and set herself on fire by lighting a match. About the age of three, when Nagina could spoke clearly, she gave more details about a previous life. She said that she was Oma, a teacher, and that she had two dauthers and two sons. Her statements also included the details of how she had a quarrel with her husband and set herself on fire after dowsing herself in kerosene.

A women called Oma devi lived a few yards away from the house of Amaruddin. She was married and had four children: two dauthers and two sons. She was a teacher in a school in District Etah, and her husband sold books and stationary in Mohammadabad. The couple did not get along well. On May 19, 1987 they had a serious quarrel; Oma Devi dowsed herself with kerosene and immolated herself. Her body was charred completely; she was 47 at the time. On hearing about Nagina’s claims Oma Devi’s sons called her to their home. Oma Devi’s younger son expressed reservations about the case but did not deny it completely. Her older son was convinced that Nagina was his mother reborn. His conviction derived from Nagina’s behaviour and her knowledge of certain events in Oma Devi’s life that he believed were not known to outsiders.

Nagina’s Unusual Behaviour: Nagina showed behaviour, which refelected her preoccupation with the mode of death in her claimed previous life. She also showed appropriate behaviour towards Oma Devi’s sons and gave information that was not in the public domain. When Oma Devi’s husband died in April 1996, Nagina became very upset (she was about 5 1/2 years old at that time.)

Nagina’s Birthmarks: Nagina’s parents, and also some other informants, noticed marks suggestive of burns on her body when she was born. On examination in December 1995, two marks were clearly seen on her body. These were hypo pigmented areas under Nagina’s chin and on her lower abdomen.

Case of Naresh Kumar: Naresh was born in Fabraury 1981 in the village of Baznagar of District Lucknow, U.P. His parents were Guruprasad and his wife, Bishwana. The family were of middle lower socioeconomic status and were Hindus. About the age of one year, when he started to speak, Naresh used to utter two words, “Kakori” (name of a place) and “kharkhara” (local word for a horse-cart). When he was about four years old, he gave details about a previous life. He said that he was carrying mangoes in his horse-cart when it collided with a vehicle and he died; he also said that he was Moslem and lived in Kakori. Naresh used to talk about a previous life whenever anyone asked him in the village.

A moslem Fakir called Haider Ali used to come to Baznagar every Thursday for alms. After Naresh started walking, he used to follow Haider Ali around the village. Naresh said that Haider Ali was his father and that he wanted to go with him. Everyone in the village called Haider Ali “Baba” but Naresh used to call him, “Abba” (father). Haider Ali lived in Kakori with his family who belonged to the Sunni sect of Islam. He had married twice and had one son from his first marriage, three sons and seven dauthers from his second. Mushir Ali was his oldest son from the secong marriage.

Naresh was so insistent in his demands to be taken to Kakori that Bishwana decided to ask for Haider Ali’s help, as He was a Moslem, and came from Kakori. Haider Ali advised her to take Naresh to a Mazar (grave of a Moslem Saint) so that he would stop talking about the previous life.* Naresh’s parents did take him to Mazar, but this did not help; Naresh continued to talk about the previous life and to insist on going to his previous house. One day he even started going toward the road by himself. Eventually, Guruprasad decided to take Naresh, along with some other people from Baznagar, to Kakori. Naresh is said to have led them to Mushir Ali’s house. On reaching the house, Naresh recongnized several objects that had belonged to Mushir Ali, such as a cap and the contents of Mushir Ali’s suitcase. He was also credited with having correctly recognized members of Mushir Ali’s immediate family, as well as other relatives and friends. Naresh, when questioned, told them about the bank account that the family had when Mushir Ali died. He also mentioned the name of a person who owed some money to Mushir Ali. (The family acknowledged this as true and added that the person in question had returned the money after Mushir Ali’s death.) On the bais of these and other statements Naresh was accepted as Mushir Ali (the son of Haider Ali) reborn.

Mushir Ali had hired a horse-cart and used to take vegetables and fruits to the market; he was the sole breadwinner of the family at the time of his death. On june 30, 1980 in the early hours of the morning, Mushir Ali was taking mangoes to the market in Lucknow in his horse-cart. He had gone a little more than 2 kilometers from Kakori when his cart collided with a tractor; he died almost instantly. He was 25 years old at the time. Mushir Ali’s family were economically no better off than Naresh’s family. Mushir Ali’s other brothers, when Dr. Satwant Pasricha met them in 1988, had grown and had their own embroidery buisness which improved their economic situation to some extent.

Naresh’s Unusual Behaviour: When Naresh was about 2 years old, he would assume the posture of kneeling down and saying Namaz. He would try to do it when he was alone. and would stop when he noticed that others were observing him. Naresh also played at driving a horse-cart. He would tie a rope to a cot and push it and would make sounds as if driving a horse. He also spoke a few words of Urdu.

Naresh’s Birth Defect: Naresh had a birth defect (a depressed area) near the middle of his chest., slightly on the right side. This corresponded to the fracture of the ribs of Mushir Ali that was reported in the post-mortem examination. In this case of the birth defect, Dr. Satwant Pasricha has published a separate paper[2].

*

1. Stevenson I. Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birthdefects. Connecticut: Praeger, 1997.

2. Pasricha, S. K. Case of the Reincarnation Type in North India with Birthmarks and Birth defects. J.Sci. Explor 1998; 12: 259-93.


http://krishna.org/is-reincarnation-a-religious-fantasy/

@Nuya

My post is incomplete without doses of irrationality offered by you in the name of flawless logic !!

@Nuya

Well,why have you fallen in love with flawed arguments?At least,be aware of the fact that I hail you as a very refined lady..hehe ?


It appears that at present there is nothing else in your mind other than ”bullshit meter”.

It’s indeed hard to believe that exceptional souls can make absurd claims merely to entertain the people in power? Well, a rational soul like you can think in that way.Sadly,I am not that rational to honour such wild speculations !

@Nuya

Thanks for appreciating me in such a veiled manner!Such kind gestures will definitely make two people like us having snake and mongoose type relationship maintain good relationship in the virtual world.I don’t know what will happen if we ever met in the real world..haha

You must be aware of the fact to doubt is characteristic of all conscious individuals.Why should I prevent myself from honuring lesser heard phenomenons in light of better logic?More so when such phenomenons have got the support of some of the best minds.

I think that you are aware of the fact that I a very critical and don’t accept things on face value unless there are many evidences in support of that happening.Probably,that’s why my posts are often the most commented ones with lots of links.

I will never treat anything as childish nonsense unless one comes to tell me why he/she finds them childish ?

Well,I can tell you that what rationalist have dismissed as childish phenomenon or something insignificant have led to marvelous discoveries.

For the whole word falling of apples from trees was a very natural thing.But for Newton this falling of apples was not at all childish affair.

Indeed, it’s difficult to shatter the illusions of rational minds.I prefer to be childish.It will not only make me in tune with innocence that prevails on the face of children but also help me to understand life in my own unique way.

But don’t worry!I have place for committed rationalist like U as well.You and other such souls are always most welcome in my world with ”DOSE OF RATIONALITY”.

Hindus believe a person with perfect humanity and divinity will not have more than one birth.The people who have not been in perfection towards his life habits usually have another birth.This was said to happen 7 times.The person’s life was fixed by god as per his behaviour in his previous birth.The philosophy according to hinduism about rebirth was the mistakes you have done in previous birth can be covered in rebirth and get a perfect human life.

While this is a belief passed on by ancestors, and Hindu philosophers have also stated this in several articles — the rationality is still unavailable.

@Rajagopalan,

Thanks for dropping by with a thoughtful remark!

”The philosophy according to Hinduism about rebirth was the mistakes you have done in previous birth can be covered in rebirth and get a perfect human life.”

You sound quite correct.Like to add the theory of rebirth also makes one conscious of one’s misdeeds and therefore pressurize him to follow the right path.

Well,I don’t know how far it’s correct to view all the mysteries of life in a rational way! One of the reasons why our ancestors were more happy than us because they didn’t try to have complex view of affairs.They loved simplicity and loved heart over head.

Today when head has become dominant there are more lunatic asylums ,more quarrels and more courts..hehe

Coming back to the topic,I must say that it’s not at all figment of imagination.Right from Krishna to Buddha all enlightened souls have discussed it.

So we have every right to discuss it instead of dismissing it as a childish phenomenon.Do types of Buddha appear in world to fool the uneducated people via putting the seal of approval on phenomenons like REBIRTH ?

@Nuya

You are always most welcome !!

@Nuya

We are not discussing the presence of birthmark.We are discussing the role of birth mark only in those souls who have met unnatural death by being hit on the same spot with some weapon or some great fall that damaged the said part very badly !

Please don’t misquote and change the topic of discussion via such observations made in a haste!!

Arvind,
Christianity and Islam both advocate rebirth after dooms day. Hinduism, I understand, re-birth is according ones karma ie deed in the world. If goods deeds attained after moksha(atonement)the karmayogi will take good forms like peacock,peahen,dove after rebirth. If a man of adharma in the world,he becomes karma ayogi(rejected person?)taking forms of pigs,dogs,wild animals.

Arvind, do you want to say any thing.
Kindly do not argue just explain me in few words not in broad reference where I can lose the thread. Okay mister?

Arvind,
Please note what rajagopalan says.
Perfection and imperfection are what he ponders. Let them be. He says that rationality is not available. I got the answer. I read all things. I understand things are under research that are not concluded. I will accept newton why apple comes down but sorry to say,to my knowledge, i lack power to understand the unseen matter. Bye.

The theory of rebirth has clear scientific validation also. The discovery of DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) in 1950 by James Watson and Francis Crick provided strong certification to this theory. When human DNA was thoroughly studied it became evident that there were clear prints (besides of humans) of those of many of the animals as well as of many strains of bacteria. This is undeniable proof that the present human body has come travelling across vivid varieties of past lives. Thus, out of hundreds of such studies showing inalienable link of the present human life with previous lives, here are two such scientific studies which the readers of Mr. Pandey’s article on rebirth may read on.
1. DNA And Past Lives Theory
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread313457/pg1

2. SCHOLARS SUGGEST HUMAN DNA IS EXTRATERRESTRIAL
http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=217519

The American poet Edna St. Vincent Millay (Mrs. Eugene Boissevain [1892-1950], after studying the marvels of human body and life, very appropriately described the existence of God in her poetry titled “Renascence” :

God I can push the grass apart
And lay my finger on thy heart !

By studying the DNA, the secret lying over the mystery of human life in the form of ‘grass’ can be easily unveiled, and the ‘face’ of Almighty God can be seen.

@Nuya

Excerpts from my own comment made on one of my other posts:

It will be a great blunder to think that humans can live without religion.

Science too has good and bad sides.We ignore the bad an further refine the better scientific perceptions.

The same principle governs the world of religion as well.Who has asked the followers to be in tune with distorted views ? Why can’t they adopt the better versions and turn into Mother Teresa or Gandhi?

It’s not the fault of scientific principles that you are using them to wipe out humanity!Then why do you blame the religion?It does not ask to kill or rape.It’s your faulty vision that let’s you view them in wrong light.

If you are using the cricket ball to break someone’s head I don’t think it’s the fault of the cricket ball.You were supposed to play cricket with that ball and you turned it into a weapon! Religion is there to make you in tune with divinity and not at all aimed at producing terrorists.

**************************************


I have never denied the better aspects of science.But that cannot be the pretext to ignore the wrongs taking place in the scientific world.Can you ignore the global warming ?Can you ignore the mass production of nuclear weapons by super powers?Now even smaller nations are after nuclear bombs.Scare of Anthrax is enough to make any American institution turn into picture of chaos and confusion.

In other words, when the ”rationalist” and ”realist” like you are ready to ignore the wrong side of science and are going gaga over scientific achievements why are you people shy of accepting the constructive role of religion over the insignificant aspects of religion ?

If I start living in the cave who will save the world from ”rationalist” and ”realist” like you :-)

Anyway,I am living in a cave-the cave of heart :-)

@Nuya

I am also both realist and rationalist but in my own unique with me.I think difference between me and a confirmed rationalist like you should exist to add more dimensions in word rationality,to add more colour in dull life of ours !!

That’s why I cannot turn a blind eye to wrong both in the world of science as well as religion.

The activities you have mentioned-the childlike ones-are very close to my heart.I still find time for them.What about U ?

Nuya

I am also both realist and rationalist but in my own unique way.

@Nuya

I am aware of the drama taking place in the world of religion.I am aware of the mass suicides that takes place in search of better life.

However,that cannot be the excuse to undermine the importance and usage of religion.

You can use the video camera to shoot the pains of human life and make others know more about human life.You can also use the same camera to shoot the X rated movies.

Just because of the X rated movies will you ban the use of camera ?

@Anne

Though you are not aware about the rebirth in an academic way,you are still aware of the important aspect-the theory of Karma.

Yes,theory of Karma plays a major role in deciding the course of rebirth.Read something authentic on this issue by likes of Sri Aurobindo and Radhakrishnan.In fact,a link on this issue has been posted on this article.Have a look at it.


http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/auro/auro_rebirth.asp

No need to understand the theory in light of ”yonis”(Forms of life) attained by the ”jeeva”(individual soul.Take note of the logic.

What happens when you are involved in good consequences.What’s the reward ?You are mentally happy.On the other hand, bad actions land you in trouble or they take away your peace of mind.That’s the reward of bad actions.The same thing has been demonstrated in form of attainment of various yonis in Rebirth phenomenon.

@Anne

I have taken note of Rajagopalan views.And responded too.

@ G. S. JOHAR

Thanks for participating in the debate with some interesting and useful information.

@Nuya

I am talking about the role of religion in life of human beings.It help human beings to understand that he/she is on this planet to serve the human beings.That we should not hate anybody as all the people are the manifestation of same Higher power called God.

You might ridicule the role played by religion but I bet our world devoid of God will certainly turn into hell of another planet !!

@Nuya

Whether you retain the intensity of liking towards me or not but I hope you shall always retain the innocence within your heart-the legacy of childhood.

Most of us brutally murder the innocence in a mad rush to appear practical in mad mad world of ours!It’s nice to meet someone who is still in the possession of ”childlike” attributes.The innocence does not have staying power in the complex world of ours chased by all sorts of mindless activities.

People have taken a lenient view on the spiritual life because they think that the human rebirths are possible and so they can put up the spiritual effort slowly in the future human births.

I doubt / wonder thats the reason why Hindus are converting to Christianity for money. Or may be they have lost faith.

Once Parvati asked Shiva whether all the sins of those who took a bath in Ganges at Kashi and worshipped Vishwanath(Shiva) are being washed away.

Then Shiva took her to the river.There both of them turned into an old couple.Shiva created a pit,descended into it while Parvati cried loudly seeking help.When people came to help,she said that only those whose sins are all washed away can lend a hand to her husband and get him out.She said that if those whose sins are all not washed away try to help her husband,they will get burnt.None came forward.At last a whore,whose profession is sinful, came forward and pulled out Shiva.Shiva is said to have told Parvati that the sins get washed away for those who really had faith that their sins are being washed away.A majority did not believe that their sins are washed away.

The above story also gets repeated with respect to Srisailam pilgrimage center in Andhra Pradesh in India as I remember having read in my childhood.Might be devotees are best advised to keep faith so that their sins really get washed away and so that they do not suffer in the next birth-death cycles.

@Rajagopalan S

”People have taken a lenient view on the spiritual life because they think that the human rebirths are possible and so they can put up the spiritual effort slowly in the future human births.”

...I don’t think that’s the case.They have taken a lenient view because they
are not aware of the real attributes of Hinduism or Santana Dharma Or Spirituality.

Have you noticed Rajagopalan that ordinarily we are not interested in taking birth and that’s why majority of us think of committing suicide once in their lifetime.

And if take the view of real spiritual seeker ,let me categorically state that he/she is not at all interested in having rebirth.

Like to quote a shloka from a very famous poem by Sri Adi Shankracharya called Bhaja Govindam :

Verse 21

punarapi jananaM punarapi maraNaM
punarapi jananii jaThare shayanam.h .
iha saMsaare bahudustaare
kRipayaa.apaare paahi muraare

—- Born again, death again, birth again to stay in the mother’s womb ! It is indeed hard to cross this boundless ocean of samsara. Oh Murari ! Redeem me through Thy mercy. (Stanza attributed to Nityanatha.)

***************************************


Here is the whole poem.I love this poem from core of my heart.Each verse in the poem is a real gem :


bhajagovindaM bhajagovindaM
govindaM bhajamuuDhamate .
saMpraapte sannihite kaale
nahi nahi rakshati DukR^iJNkaraNe


2

mUDha jahiihi dhanaagamatR^ishhNaaM
kuru sadbuddhiM manasi vitR^ishhNaam.h .
yallabhase nijakarmopaattaM
vittaM tena vinodaya chittam.h


3

naariistanabhara naabhiideshaM
dR^ishhTvaa maagaamohaavesham.h .
etanmaaMsaavasaadi vikaaraM
manasi vichintaya vaaraM vaaram.h

4

naliniidalagata jalamatitaralaM
tadvajjiivitamatishayachapalam.h .
viddhi vyaadhyabhimaanagrastaM
lokaM shokahataM cha samastam.h

5

yaavadvittopaarjana saktaH
staavannija parivaaro raktaH .
pashchaajjiivati jarjara dehe
vaartaaM ko.api na pR^ichchhati gehe

6

yaavatpavano nivasati dehe
taavatpR^ichchhati kushalaM gehe .
gatavati vaayau dehaapaaye
bhaaryaa bibhyati tasminkaaye

7

baalastaavatkriiDaasaktaH
taruNastaavattaruNiisaktaH .
vR^iddhastaavachchintaasaktaH
pare brahmaNi ko.api na saktaH

8

kaate kaantaa kaste putraH
saMsaaro.ayamatiiva vichitraH .
kasya tvaM kaH kuta aayaataH
tattvaM chintaya tadiha bhraataH

9

satsaNgatve nissNgatvaM
nissaNgatve nirmohatvam.h .
nirmohatve nishchalatattvaM
nishcalatattve jiivanmuktiH

10

vayasigate kaH kaamavikaaraH
shushhke niire kaH kaasaaraH .
kshiiNevitte kaH parivaaraH
GYaate tattve kaH saMsaaraH

11

maa kuru dhana jana yauvana garvaM
harati nimeshhaatkaalaH sarvam.h .
maayaamayamidamakhilaM hitvaa
brahmapadaM tvaM pravisha viditvaa

12

dinayaaminyau saayaM praataH
shishiravasantau punaraayaataH .
kaalaH kriiDati gachchhatyaayuH
tadapi na muJNcatyaashaavaayuH

12a

dvaadashamaJNjarikaabhirasheshhaH
kathito vaiyaakaraNasyaishhaH .
upadesho bhuudvidyaanipuNaiH
shriimachchhankarabhagavachchharaNariH

13

kaate kaantaa dhana gatachintaa
vaatula kiM tava naasti niyantaa .
trijagati sajjanasaM gatiraikaa
bhavati bhavaarNavataraNe naukaa

14

jaTilo muNDii luJNchhitakeshaH
kaashhaayaambarabahukR^itaveshhaH .
pashyannapi cana pashyati muuDhaH
udaranimittaM bahukR^itaveshhaH

15

aNgaM galitaM palitaM muNDaM
dashanavihiinaM jataM tuNDam.h .
vRiddho yaati gRihiitvaa daNDaM
tadapi na muJNcatyaashaapiNDam.h

16

agre vahniH pR^ishhThebhaanuH
raatrau chubukasamarpitajaanuH .
karatalabhikshastarutalavaasaH
tadapi na muJNcatyaashaapaashaH

17

kurute gaN^gaasaagaragamanaM
vrataparipaalanamathavaa daanam.h .
GYaanavihinaH sarvamatena
muktiM na bhajati janmashatena

18

sura ma.ndira taru muula nivaasaH
shayyaa bhuutala majinaM vaasaH .
sarva parigraha bhoga tyaagaH
kasya sukhaM na karoti viraagaH

19

yogarato vaabhogaratovaa
saNgarato vaa saNgaviihinaH .
yasya brahmaNi ramate chittaM
nandati nandati nandatyeva

20

bhagavad.h giitaa kiJNchidadhiitaa
gaNgaa jalalava kaNikaapiitaa .
sakRidapi yena muraari samarchaa
kriyate tasya yamena na charchaa

21

punarapi jananaM punarapi maraNaM
punarapi jananii jaThare shayanam.h .
iha saMsaare bahudustaare
kRipayaa.apaare paahi muraare

22

rathyaa charpaTa virachita kanthaH
puNyaapuNya vivarjita panthaH .
yogii yoganiyojita chitto
ramate baalonmattavadeva

23

kastvaM ko.ahaM kuta aayaataH
kaa me jananii ko me taataH .
iti paribhaavaya sarvamasaaram.h
vishvaM tyaktvaa svapna vichaaram.h

24

tvayi mayi chaanyatraiko vishhNuH
vyarthaM kupyasi mayyasahishhNuH .
bhava samachittaH sarvatra tvaM
vaaJNchhasyachiraadyadi vishhNutvam.h

25

shatrau mitre putre bandhau
maa kuru yatnaM vigrahasandhau .
sarvasminnapi pashyaatmaanaM
sarvatrotsR^ija bhedaaGYaanam.h

26

kaamaM krodhaM lobhaM mohaM
tyaktvaa.atmaanaM bhaavaya ko.aham.h .
aatmaGYaana vihiinaa muuDhaaH
te pachyante narakaniguuDhaaH

27

geyaM giitaa naama sahasraM
dhyeyaM shriipati ruupamajasram.h .
neyaM sajjana saNge chittaM
deyaM diinajanaaya cha vittam.h

28

sukhataH kriyate raamaabhogaH
pashchaaddhanta shariire rogaH .
yadyapi loke maraNaM sharaNaM
tadapi na muJNchati paapaacharaNam.h

29

arthamanarthaM bhaavaya nityaM
naastitataH sukhaleshaH satyam.h .
putraadapi dhana bhaajaaM bhiitiH
sarvatraishhaa vihiaa riitiH

30

praaNaayaamaM pratyaahaaraM
nityaanitya vivekavichaaram.h .
jaapyasameta samaadhividhaanaM
kurvavadhaanaM mahadavadhaanam.h

31

gurucharaNaambuja nirbhara bhakataH
saMsaaraadachiraadbhava muktaH .
sendriyamaanasa niyamaadevaM
drakshyasi nija hRidayasthaM devam.h

32

muuDhaH kashchana vaiyaakaraNo
DukRiJNkaraNaadhyayana dhuriNaH .
shriimachchhamkara bhagavachchhishhyai
bodhita aasichchhodhitakaraNaH

33

bhajagovindaM bhajagovindaM
govindaM bhajamuuDhamate .
naamasmaraNaadanyamupaayaM
nahi pashyaamo bhavataraNe



——————————————————————————–

Meaning:
Pallavi: Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda. Oh fool ! Rules of Grammar will not save you at the time of your death.

2: Oh fool ! Give up your thrist to amass wealth, devote your mind to thoughts to the Real. Be content with what comes through actions already performed in the past.

3: Do not get drowned in delusion by going wild with passions and lust by seeing a woman’s navel and chest. These are nothing but a modification of flesh. Do not fail to remember this again and again in your mind.

4: The life of a man is as uncertain as rain drops trembling on a lotus leaf. Know that the whole world remains a prey to disease, ego and grief.

5: So long as a man is fit and able to support his family, see the affection all those around him show. But no one at home cares to even have a word with him when his body totters due to old age.

6: When one is alive, his family members enquire kindly about his welfare. But when the soul departs from the body, even his wife runs away in fear of the corpse.

7: The childhood is lost by attachment to playfulness. Youth is lost by attachment to woman. Old age passes away by thinking over many past things. But there is hardly anyone who wants to be lost in parabrahman.

8: Who is your wife ? Who is your son ? Strange is this samsara. Of whom are you ? From where have you come ? Brother, ponder over these truths here.

9: From Satsangh comes non-attachment, from non-attachment comes freedom from delusion, which leads to self-settledness. From self-settledness comes Jeevan Mukti.

10: What good is lust when youth has fled ? What use is a lake which has no water ? Where are the relatives when wealth is gone ? Where is samsara when the Truth is known ?

11: Do not boast of wealth, friends, and youth. Each one of these are destroyed within a minute. Free yourself from the illusion of the world of Maya and attain the timeless Truth.

12: Daylight and darkness, dusk and dawn, winter and springtime come and go. Time plays and life ebbs away. But the storm of desire never leaves.

12a: This bouquet of twelve verses was imparted to a grammarian by the all-knowing Shankara, adored as the bhagavadpada.

13: Oh mad man ! Why this engrossment in thoughts of wealth ? Is there no one to guide you ? There is only one thing in three worlds that can save you from the ocean from samsara. Get into that boat of satsangha quickly. (Stanza attributed to Padmapada.)

14: There are many who go with matted locks, many who have clean shaven heads, many whose hairs have been plucked out; some are clothed in saffron, yet others in various colors — all just for a livelihood. Seeing truth revealed before them, still the foolish ones see it not. (Stanza attributed to Totakacharya.)

15: Strength has left the old man’s body; his head has become bald, his gums toothless and leaning on crutches. Even then the attachment is strong and he clings firmly to fruitless desires. (Stanza attributed to Hastamalaka.)

16: Behold there lies the man who sits warming up his body with the fire in fromt and the sun at the back; at night he curls up the body to keep out of the cold; he eats his beggar’s food from the bowl of his hand and sleeps beneath the tree. Still in his heart, he is a wretched puppet at the hands of passions. (Stanza attributed to Subodha.)

17: One may go to gangasagar, observe fasts, and give away riches in charity ! Yet, devoid of jnana, nothing can give mukthi even at the end of a hundred births. (Stanza attributed to Sureshwaracharya.)

18: Take your residence in a temple or below a tree, wear the deerskin for the dress, and sleep with mother earth as your bed. Give up all attachments and renounce all comforts. Blessed with such vairagya, could any fail to be content ? (Stanza attributed to Nityananda.)

19: One may take delight in yoga or bhoga, may have attachment or detachment. But only he whose mind steadily delights in Brahman enjoys bliss, no one else. Stanza attributed to Anandagiri.

20: Let a man read but a little from giitaa, drink just a drop of water from the ganges, worship murari (govinda) just once. He then will have no altercation with Yama. (Stanza attributed to dR^iDhabhakta.)

21: Born again, death again, birth again to stay in the mother’s womb ! It is indeed hard to cross this boundless ocean of samsara. Oh Murari ! Redeem me through Thy mercy. (Stanza attributed to Nityanatha.)

22: There is no shortage of clothing for a monk so long as there are rags cast off the road. Freed from vice and virtue, onward he wanders. One who lives in communion with God enjoys bliss, pure and uncontaminated, like a child and as someone intoxicated. (Stanza attributed to Nityanatha.)

23: Who are you ? Who am I ? From where do I come ? Who is my mother, who is my father ? Ponder thus, look at everything as essenceless and give up the world as an idle dream. (Stanza attributed to Surendra.)

24: In me, in you and in everything, none but the same Vishnu dwells. Your anger and impatience is meaningless. If you wish to attain the status of Vishnu soon, have samabhava always. (Stanza attributed to Medhaatithira.)

25: Do not waste your efforts to win the love of or to fight against friend and foe, children and relatives. See yourself in everyone and give up all feelings of duality completely. (Stanza attributed to Medhaatithira.)

26: Give up lust, anger, infatuation, and greed. Ponder over your real nature. Fools are they who are blind to the Self. Cast into hell they suffer there endlessly. (Stanza attributed to Bharativamsha.)

27: Regularly recite from the Gita, meditate on Vishnu [thro’ Vishnu sahasranama] in your heart, and chant His thousand glories. Take delight to be with the noble and the holy. Distribute your wealth in charity to the poor and the needy. (Stanza attributed to Sumatira.)

28: He who yields to lust for pleasure leaves his body a prey to disease. Though death brings an end to everything, man does not gives up the sinful path.

29: Wealth is not welfare, truly there is no joy in it. Reflect thus at all times. A rich man fears even his own son. This is the way of wealth everywhere.

30: Regulate the pranas, remain unaffected by external influences and discriminate between the real and the fleeting. Chant the holy name of God and silence the turbulent mind. Perform these with care, with extreme care.

31: Oh devotee of the lotus feet of the Guru ! May thou be soon free from Samsara. Through disciplined senses and controlled mind, thou shalt come to experience the Indwelling Lord of your heart !

32: Thus was a silly grammarian lost in rules cleansed of his narrow vision and shown the Light by Shankara’s apostles.

33: Worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda, Oh fool ! Other than chanting the Lord’s names, there is no other way to cross the life’s ocean.

***************************************

As a Hindu, I strongly believe in re-birth, simply because there has been extensive research done on the subject by respected members of society, who had interviewed people who could remember a lot of things that had happened in their previous life, and they were able to take the reserachers to the place where they lived, tell them who their parents were and it all fitted well - that was no coincidence.

I still remember reading about one such case of a young 6-year old who recalled his parents’ residence, its location, his ”wife” from the previous birth who (his wife) vividly remembered losing her husband when he was murdered by some one and there were marks on the head of the boy which left no doubt in the mind of the researchers when they matched it with accounts of police and other family members. And there was no way the boy could have known these things.

Finally,I think we have to respectfully differ and hold our viewpoints. There is no need to be unpleasant and contemptous of others’ beliefs unless their beliefs or actions harm others.

A lot of people in this world believe in ”after life”. Christians believe that there is a heaven and hell - has anyone seen either of these ”places”?

Arvind, you and I are welcome to our beliefs, no matter what. We are not answerable to people who ridicule our beliefs.

@Nuya


”Since we are the ones capable of logic and reason we are responsible for behaving logically and responsibly. Helping others is logical for the advancement of our species, harming others is not rational.”

Then why U.S. has turned into caretaker of the whole world attacking sovereignty of smaller nations on false pretexts ?

If everybody is aware of the values and human rights who has given U.S. the power to teach Human Rights to smaller nations in such a vulgar way ?

The problem is that our knowledge of religious principles is very sketchy and superficial.We think we know them but in fact we are not at all aware of them.

In the previous comment I came out with a very simplistic version of Religion’s importance in our lives.I need not to elaborate it because of two reasons.

First:It’s going to make my comment too long and I will again be targeted for writing long comments by some so-called refined writers on Instablogs.

Second: I think many wonderful scholars have written in length about importance of religion like Sri Aurobindo,Vivekananda, Tagore ,Radhakrishnan. I don’t think I can add anything better than these people.I request you to Google search and I am sure you will come across beautiful articles by them.

That will prevent me from saying the same thing in my own way. I will definitely add my input after you have read them. I do feel that you need to read them before asking any questions to me in this regard.

@Rukmani

Many thanks to you for your very encouraging remark.Thanks for upholding the concept of REBIRTH in such an enlightened manner.

I am only trying to present some fascinating concepts in Hinduism in a scientific,rational and reasonable manner.

The cooperation of readers like you is imperative for clearing the confusions and doubts encircling such beautiful Hindu phenomenons.

Keep visiting with such remarks.

@Rukamani

I hope you visited the links shared on this page in this connection.I am sure they are going to further refine your beliefs.Also have a look at the revelations of Stevenson and Dr. Satwant Pasricha, Head of Department of Clinical Psycology, NIMHANS.

@Nuya

Your kids are really very lucky to have found such a conscious mother ! Do they know that their Mom is simply terrific?

@Arvind,

First of I would like to say that the pictures are too good. They really take you into a different world. I don’t know if rebirth really happens, but I would love to believe that it does. The idea of new lands and immortality fills me up with an optimism that is so very consoling.

@Leena

Thanks for making your presence felt with a very mystical observation.You have made me think in an other worldly manner.Till now ,as you can see, I have been involved in highlighting the intricacies associated with Rebirth but your ”wonderful eyes” brought back the beauty of the unknown.

When I write an article I try my best to have pictures that can enhance the meaning of the article and to produce that effect I go to any extent.

But let me say that effect conveyed by the pictures is much more than what you can say in 1000 words.It’s another thing that you need a very-very refined mind-a mind residing on a higher plane-to appreciate the real beauty of these type of picture,to sense the essence conveyed by the picture.

Your appreciation is indicative of not only your ”wonderful eyes” but also of your very sensitive mind roaming at a higher plane.Like Nuya you too have a very wonderful mind.I am convinced that like her you too must be very much attached with your childhood memories.

One thing more.The credit should go to the real owners of this pictures.

Coming back to the topic,I must say we should have the capacity to appreciate the unseen.Many things should be left on faith.I know there are not many so-called rational arguments to defend rebirth but then I have no reason to challenge the insights of likes of Sri Krishna and Sri Aurobindo.The tenets of Hinduism are by-product of enlightened seers who were iconic manifestations of divinity.So even if you lack enough reasons to satisfy your intellect,I don’t think there is not much harm in giving way to the insights of selfless seers that always worked for the cause of humanity!!

Nuya


Most of the points raised by you in your previous comment are valid.I must say you are a ”very spiritual person” and therefore I cannot prevent myself from answering your queries in a detailed way. However, having said that, I must say that you need to have a brush with tenets of Hinduism as mentioned by some of the qualified scholars on Indian philosophy.

That will help you gain better insight and help you become a more evolved person.Though it’s clear that you are in no need of religious prescriptions but my point is that having a knowledge of steps in spirituality will make your earthly journey better.In absence of knowledge you may still reach the goal but not without risk of too many upsets.

***************************************

”What I mean by religion is the text, the dogma, the rituals associated with organized religion.”


...I too hate organized religion.I have no place for rituals and all other drama that takes place in the name of religious ceremonies.Before I proceed any further let me tell you that I am only talking about Hindu religion because I know only it in a proper way.However,I feel that since it’s the source of all other major religions any explanation offered by me shall be equally valid for other religions as well.

Yes,I know that text,rituals etc. are not needed,especially by evolved souls like U! But the problem is that majority of us are not evolved souls.They are just beginners. I don’t think that we can teach a kid E= Mc2.We have to begin with alphabets while dealing with kids.

Same is the role of rituals and text.But the problem is that most of them get trapped in them forever.They forget the philosophy or for that matter never able to reach at the higher stage.True, the religious leaders of all the religions are guilty of trapping their followers in state of ignorance.In our age the task of reforms in religion has become difficult with rise of materialism.Ironically,the rise of materialism means the day is not far when real spirituality will make a strong comeback.

At present, fake spirituality or religion devoid of immortality has become order of the day.

”They made up religions to replace philosophy, that is what went wrong. Humans could not evolve into what they were meant to be because the inherent spirituality was crushed with dogma.”

Very well said.

I have on some other post stated that Hindu religion is basically not a religion.It’s way of living life and therefore it is guided more by strong philosophy than by rituals even as rituals come to play their part.

I had also explained to you that unlike west there is no strict division between religion and spirituality.In this land they are intimately interwoven.So I will not re-elaborate their relationship.I am not sure what kind of problems spiritual seekers are facing in Western or Islamic world but I can sense that being part of religion that rests heavily on rituals,they have become slaves of petty rituals.

The same thing is happening here as well but we have greater chances of coming out of the mess than others.All because of greater bonds with philosophical traits.


Anyway, you have hit the nail on the head when you say that spirituality has been replaced by rituals.That has surely blocked the growth of individuals.Both religion and spirituality came into origin to carve man in the image of God but like all other earthly phenomenons they have become mean to exploit individuals.

But the way to better days will not come by dismissing their presence altogether but by resurrecting the lost ideals.To think that role of religion can be eliminated altogether is nothing short of foolhardiness.

Did the communist movement that uprooted all the established orders of Russian empire was able to prevent the influence of religion there?It’s one of the main aim was to eliminate religion from lives of people there.Did that take place?

In the subsequent years the Communism-the representative of scientific progressiveness-badly flopped.And religion? It’s still there in all its colours!

”But we can’t eliminate the dogma without eliminating the religion. Do you see what I mean when I say no one needs religion?”

I differ with you.I want to ask you that why a movement that was started to eliminate religion with help of progressive ideals was not able to do so ? On the contrary,it itself has reached in its last stages.

Actually, the major religions are there to make man be at par with image of Lord.That’s why in eyes of real seekers as suggested by Vivekananda religion is realization.It’s not text, dogma or rituals.

Religion is not here to create bad conditioning but to shatter all the conditioning so that man can morph into highly evolved creature.

That’s why I requested you to please have a look at the role of religion and its effects from the eyes of qualified Indian scholars.It appears that you have gained insights related with religion via people having little knowledge or having biased approach towards religion-the group of progressive writers.


Yes, the likes of you don’t need religion.In fact,the very core of spirituality is to kill religion forever.I don’t think majority of us are in that state of mind.Religion will always be there.The only thing we can do is to make them serve the cause of humanity in better ways by making them less dependent on rituals, dogma and text.

@Nuya

”..and I don’t even drink!”

So what !Go swimming !