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End Discrimination Based On Marks To End Apartheid in School
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E-mailMade Popular Feb 9 2009
India :
I agree with former President Abdul Kalam that teachers play an important role in shaping the destiny of children and, therefore, they need to be equipped with modern facilities that offer quality education.
Recently Maharastra Government has issued a directive to schools, which brings an end to discrimination made on the basis of marks. The UP government should make similar arrangements, which comprehensively nullify the marks-oriented apartheid. Most of the premier English medium schools in Lucknow and other cities have grade based sections, which more often than not open gate of shame and stigma for the students, being indicative of of one’s capabilities, albeit in unscientific manner.
In fact, their one-dimensional teaching methods, laying emphasis on raising doctors and engineers alone, play havoc with sense and sensibilities of the child mired in creative instincts or for that matter, exhibiting a different temperament.
Worse, students failing to attain percentage fixed by the school administration are shown the door at critical stage of their schooling period. Needless to say, such arbitrary rejection makes these students victim of psychological disorders.
It’s high time that UP government take steps, which honour the potential of child in fullest manner, not allowing the schools to hamper the balanced development of child’s myriad wonderful traits.
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Even if you can manage to finance and administrate an educational system that caters to each student’s individual needs and abilities, you’re still left with a ”discriminatory” educational system.
What’s wrong with discrimination on the grounds of ABILITY, anyway?
Think about it.
What’s wrong with discrimination on the grounds of ABILITY, anyway?
Think about it.
(Global Perspectives)
@ Michael
What are you trying to say that weaker minds don’t have a right to get qualitative education? Do sharp minds alone enjoy the right to have best teachers?
My point is that such discrimination makes student depressed.It’s make them prone to inferiority complex.Education is supposed to provide prefect development of a child’s persona.By making it a mean to refine the abilities,we are not only giving rise to distorted personalities but also deviating away from the actual purpose of education.Look at the result of making education marks oriented/ability oriented.Students are committing suicide for petty reasons.After the results are declared,they are unable to face their friends just because they have not secured high marks.Some are never able to recover from acute depression and that make them commit suicide.Is that a healthy development ?
What are you trying to say that weaker minds don’t have a right to get qualitative education? Do sharp minds alone enjoy the right to have best teachers?
My point is that such discrimination makes student depressed.It’s make them prone to inferiority complex.Education is supposed to provide prefect development of a child’s persona.By making it a mean to refine the abilities,we are not only giving rise to distorted personalities but also deviating away from the actual purpose of education.Look at the result of making education marks oriented/ability oriented.Students are committing suicide for petty reasons.After the results are declared,they are unable to face their friends just because they have not secured high marks.Some are never able to recover from acute depression and that make them commit suicide.Is that a healthy development ?
(Local Perspectives)
What Abhishek has to say in this regard.
Abhishek Pandey says :
Yes, you are right arvind in this case.
I read your article. Its a good attempt.
I read one article that in some part of the coutry schools are providing extra facilities like home tuitions, counsellore and other more to the meritorious students of the classes for getting good results in the board exams. What the hell is this ? It will bribng infriority among students.I dont understand...
This is because they want to make shools aa money making machine not an educational institute in true sense.
Abhishek Pandey says :
Yes, you are right arvind in this case.
I read your article. Its a good attempt.
I read one article that in some part of the coutry schools are providing extra facilities like home tuitions, counsellore and other more to the meritorious students of the classes for getting good results in the board exams. What the hell is this ? It will bribng infriority among students.I dont understand...
This is because they want to make shools aa money making machine not an educational institute in true sense.
(Local Perspectives)
Arvind, with all due respect:
“What are you trying to say that weaker minds don’t have a right to get qualitative education? Do sharp minds alone enjoy the right to have best teachers?”
No, I’m trying to say that in the nature of things that’s what would happen in any case. A country having enough good and talented teachers to allow each and every student (or even a majority of students) to benefit from them would be a very rich country indeed. As it stands today, there is a major teacher shortage over most of the world without even considering whether those existing teachers are good, bad or indifferent.
To expect that enough “good” teachers would be available for all students, you would have to drain all the other branches of society of their talented and capable people. Not everyone is cut out to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer or scientist, and parents have to get used to the idea that not every child is a genius. Yes, it’s cruel, but governments the world over have been “lowering the bar” for many years now… the “no child left behind” concept is an example—how can a child who can’t read or compose a coherent sentence be allowed to go on to the higher grades?
“My point is that such discrimination makes student depressed.”
I’m sorry, but I don’t think that the educational system is the right address for this. Why should the emotional and/or psychological well-being of a student be the responsibility of the educational system and not of the parents?
“Education is supposed to provide prefect development of a child’s persona.”
Maybe it is, maybe not. I think that should be the parent’s responsibility, in part if not entirely. In these days of overcrowded classrooms, it’s unreasonable to expect a teacher to be a teacher, psychologist, advisor and mentor. When were parents allowed to abdicate from their responsibilities as parents? Does a parent’s responsibility end when a child no longer needs to have its diapers changed?
Here in Israel, you have both extremes. Some parents pressure their children to take extra courses, push their children beyond their capabilities and generally make their lives miserable. In recent years there has been a rise in many problems among this sector of students, including alcoholism, drug addiction and suicides. At the other extreme, you have the “democratic schools”, where the children themselves choose their syllabus. A recent independent study has shown that the majority of “democratic school” students reach 7th and 8th grade without knowing how to read or write. Neither extreme is appealing.
“After the results are declared, they are unable to face their friends just because they have not secured high marks.”
The answer to this ought to be obvious: if you don’t study, you don’t get good marks. I’m old enough to remember the time when it was possible to be “left back” or repeat a grade for another year—and the threat of that possibility kept us cracking the books, I can tell you that!
I was taught that the education system’s job was to prepare us to be adults who could hold down a job according to our abilities and be able to advance through hard work and additional learning, which each would pursue according to his/her intellectual ability. Would you want an uneducated, ignorant person to become the elected leader of a major nation? It happened 8 years ago, and look at the US now! Just imagine how many people he would have killed had he become a doctor.
One of the worst aspects of the “new” approach to education, in my mind, is the idea that “the student mustn’t be frustrated or disappointed”. I have to disagree with this in the strongest terms; frustrations and disappointments are an integral part of life and if we don’t learn to deal with them when we’re young, then when will we learn to deal with them?
It’s a fact of life that we aren’t all intellectually equal and pretending that we are is only going to make the education systems around the world worse than they already are.
“What are you trying to say that weaker minds don’t have a right to get qualitative education? Do sharp minds alone enjoy the right to have best teachers?”
No, I’m trying to say that in the nature of things that’s what would happen in any case. A country having enough good and talented teachers to allow each and every student (or even a majority of students) to benefit from them would be a very rich country indeed. As it stands today, there is a major teacher shortage over most of the world without even considering whether those existing teachers are good, bad or indifferent.
To expect that enough “good” teachers would be available for all students, you would have to drain all the other branches of society of their talented and capable people. Not everyone is cut out to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer or scientist, and parents have to get used to the idea that not every child is a genius. Yes, it’s cruel, but governments the world over have been “lowering the bar” for many years now… the “no child left behind” concept is an example—how can a child who can’t read or compose a coherent sentence be allowed to go on to the higher grades?
“My point is that such discrimination makes student depressed.”
I’m sorry, but I don’t think that the educational system is the right address for this. Why should the emotional and/or psychological well-being of a student be the responsibility of the educational system and not of the parents?
“Education is supposed to provide prefect development of a child’s persona.”
Maybe it is, maybe not. I think that should be the parent’s responsibility, in part if not entirely. In these days of overcrowded classrooms, it’s unreasonable to expect a teacher to be a teacher, psychologist, advisor and mentor. When were parents allowed to abdicate from their responsibilities as parents? Does a parent’s responsibility end when a child no longer needs to have its diapers changed?
Here in Israel, you have both extremes. Some parents pressure their children to take extra courses, push their children beyond their capabilities and generally make their lives miserable. In recent years there has been a rise in many problems among this sector of students, including alcoholism, drug addiction and suicides. At the other extreme, you have the “democratic schools”, where the children themselves choose their syllabus. A recent independent study has shown that the majority of “democratic school” students reach 7th and 8th grade without knowing how to read or write. Neither extreme is appealing.
“After the results are declared, they are unable to face their friends just because they have not secured high marks.”
The answer to this ought to be obvious: if you don’t study, you don’t get good marks. I’m old enough to remember the time when it was possible to be “left back” or repeat a grade for another year—and the threat of that possibility kept us cracking the books, I can tell you that!
I was taught that the education system’s job was to prepare us to be adults who could hold down a job according to our abilities and be able to advance through hard work and additional learning, which each would pursue according to his/her intellectual ability. Would you want an uneducated, ignorant person to become the elected leader of a major nation? It happened 8 years ago, and look at the US now! Just imagine how many people he would have killed had he become a doctor.
One of the worst aspects of the “new” approach to education, in my mind, is the idea that “the student mustn’t be frustrated or disappointed”. I have to disagree with this in the strongest terms; frustrations and disappointments are an integral part of life and if we don’t learn to deal with them when we’re young, then when will we learn to deal with them?
It’s a fact of life that we aren’t all intellectually equal and pretending that we are is only going to make the education systems around the world worse than they already are.
(Global Perspectives)
@Michael
I have no problem in endorsing your observations. They sound correct. However, having said that, I must state that essence of your observations does not confirm to the overall meaning of my article.
”Yes, it’s cruel, but governments the world over have been “lowering the bar” for many years now… the “no child left behind” concept is an example—how can a child who can’t read or compose a coherent sentence be allowed to go on to the higher grades?”
Well, I have never stated that weaker students be promoted along with their weakness. What I am really trying to suggest is that weakness should not be used as pretext to subject them to discrimination of all sorts. Any sort of discrimination is going to make them prone to psychological disorder.
Anyway, recently I read something very interesting. An excerpt from that article:
”Teacher, who are considered to be the father figure for the students must keep in mind the lines of Patricia cross which read, “The task of the excellent teacher is to stimulate “apparently ordinary” people to unusual effort. The tough problem is not in identifying winners: it is in making winners out of ordinary people.” But with due caution.”
”Maybe it is, maybe not. I think that should be the parent’s responsibility, in part if not entirely. In these days of overcrowded classrooms, it’s unreasonable to expect a teacher to be a teacher, psychologist, advisor and mentor.”
I have a different opinion based on a different experience. Today many prestigious schools have developed a very cruel pattern. They refuse admissions to their own students in higher classes if they fail to secure certain marks. Now what are these students going to do? Thanks to the intervention of High Court, the schools now cannot dare to show the door to these students.
”One of the worst aspects of the “new” approach to education, in my mind, is the idea that “the student mustn’t be frustrated or disappointed”. I have to disagree with this in the strongest terms; frustrations and disappointments are an integral part of life and if we don’t learn to deal with them when we’re young, then when will we learn to deal with them?”
..But why are you creating frustration and disappointment at such an early stage when we are bound to meet them sooner or later? Life is name of tragic incidents. Does that mean we should ask our children to stop smiling and become serious and stupid like adults? An excess of it or those arising out of unreal reasons could prove lethal. Why are so many students committing suicide? I know parents are responsible for deviant behavior in students but that in no way lessen the role of teacher.
”I was taught that the education system’s job was to prepare us to be adults who could hold down a job according to our abilities and be able to advance through hard work and additional learning, which each would pursue according to his/her intellectual ability.”
....We have been taught a different thing. The purpose of education is not only to ensure livelihood in accordance with our abilities but also to turn us into good human beings with right sort of values. That’s why ”Guru”(read teacher) enjoys a supreme position in Indian society. He is hailed as God in Indian society.
I have no problem in endorsing your observations. They sound correct. However, having said that, I must state that essence of your observations does not confirm to the overall meaning of my article.
”Yes, it’s cruel, but governments the world over have been “lowering the bar” for many years now… the “no child left behind” concept is an example—how can a child who can’t read or compose a coherent sentence be allowed to go on to the higher grades?”
Well, I have never stated that weaker students be promoted along with their weakness. What I am really trying to suggest is that weakness should not be used as pretext to subject them to discrimination of all sorts. Any sort of discrimination is going to make them prone to psychological disorder.
Anyway, recently I read something very interesting. An excerpt from that article:
”Teacher, who are considered to be the father figure for the students must keep in mind the lines of Patricia cross which read, “The task of the excellent teacher is to stimulate “apparently ordinary” people to unusual effort. The tough problem is not in identifying winners: it is in making winners out of ordinary people.” But with due caution.”
”Maybe it is, maybe not. I think that should be the parent’s responsibility, in part if not entirely. In these days of overcrowded classrooms, it’s unreasonable to expect a teacher to be a teacher, psychologist, advisor and mentor.”
I have a different opinion based on a different experience. Today many prestigious schools have developed a very cruel pattern. They refuse admissions to their own students in higher classes if they fail to secure certain marks. Now what are these students going to do? Thanks to the intervention of High Court, the schools now cannot dare to show the door to these students.
”One of the worst aspects of the “new” approach to education, in my mind, is the idea that “the student mustn’t be frustrated or disappointed”. I have to disagree with this in the strongest terms; frustrations and disappointments are an integral part of life and if we don’t learn to deal with them when we’re young, then when will we learn to deal with them?”
..But why are you creating frustration and disappointment at such an early stage when we are bound to meet them sooner or later? Life is name of tragic incidents. Does that mean we should ask our children to stop smiling and become serious and stupid like adults? An excess of it or those arising out of unreal reasons could prove lethal. Why are so many students committing suicide? I know parents are responsible for deviant behavior in students but that in no way lessen the role of teacher.
”I was taught that the education system’s job was to prepare us to be adults who could hold down a job according to our abilities and be able to advance through hard work and additional learning, which each would pursue according to his/her intellectual ability.”
....We have been taught a different thing. The purpose of education is not only to ensure livelihood in accordance with our abilities but also to turn us into good human beings with right sort of values. That’s why ”Guru”(read teacher) enjoys a supreme position in Indian society. He is hailed as God in Indian society.
(Local Perspectives)
@ Arvind:
”They refuse admissions to their own students in higher classes if they fail to secure certain marks.”
Who is asking for placement in these ”prestigious institutions, the young psychologically fragile child, or the in search of ”prestige” parent?
he reason these parents want their children in this school, quite obviously, is because they want the ”God-like”, exceptional teacher for their child..
Parents are discriminating as well..Why can’t they accept any teacher for their child, just because he might not be part of a prestigious school, shouldn’t make him exempt from being a ”winner” or Guru....or should it?
It seems as if there is any discrimination and psychological trauma at hand, it is the PARENTS who are creating it with this type of mentality.
They are portraying the idea to there children that ”The God-like Guru’s who can make you a decent human within society ARE ONLY in these prestigious institutes, thus if you, as a child, are NOT accepted, you will not ever be a worthy part of society.
This is WRONG! I am a firm believer,for I have seen a million times over in my own students that a ”prestigious academy” GUARANTEES nothing in this world.
Children will learn values, hard work, devotion, and ethics by example..but not just from a guru and not only in a wealthy school.
I have seen children taught by the ”cream of the crop” in the ”best schools available” steal, cheat, and kill..No values, no respect for God or Humanity, and NO academic education.
I have seen children of poor indigens with no books, huddled together in a 7m2 dirt floored shack with a teacher no older than my oldest son (he’s 22) excel to unimaginable heights. Leaving both their parents, communities, and myself in awe.
PRESTIGE itself is DISCRIMINATIVE.
It seems kind of silly, but think of a school aged child as a chair. You have 4 legs to a chair: the parents, the teachers, the institution, and society/culture...A chair can still stay upright if ONE ”leg”, such as society weakens, but now add another ”bad leg”, the parents. You’ve got a chair that will in no way stand on it’s own...This is what we are doing to our children by placing all of the responsibility/obligation on teachers and institutions..We as parents must face the music and take blame, not just credit when it comes to preparing children for this world.
”They refuse admissions to their own students in higher classes if they fail to secure certain marks.”
Who is asking for placement in these ”prestigious institutions, the young psychologically fragile child, or the in search of ”prestige” parent?
he reason these parents want their children in this school, quite obviously, is because they want the ”God-like”, exceptional teacher for their child..
Parents are discriminating as well..Why can’t they accept any teacher for their child, just because he might not be part of a prestigious school, shouldn’t make him exempt from being a ”winner” or Guru....or should it?
It seems as if there is any discrimination and psychological trauma at hand, it is the PARENTS who are creating it with this type of mentality.
They are portraying the idea to there children that ”The God-like Guru’s who can make you a decent human within society ARE ONLY in these prestigious institutes, thus if you, as a child, are NOT accepted, you will not ever be a worthy part of society.
This is WRONG! I am a firm believer,for I have seen a million times over in my own students that a ”prestigious academy” GUARANTEES nothing in this world.
Children will learn values, hard work, devotion, and ethics by example..but not just from a guru and not only in a wealthy school.
I have seen children taught by the ”cream of the crop” in the ”best schools available” steal, cheat, and kill..No values, no respect for God or Humanity, and NO academic education.
I have seen children of poor indigens with no books, huddled together in a 7m2 dirt floored shack with a teacher no older than my oldest son (he’s 22) excel to unimaginable heights. Leaving both their parents, communities, and myself in awe.
PRESTIGE itself is DISCRIMINATIVE.
It seems kind of silly, but think of a school aged child as a chair. You have 4 legs to a chair: the parents, the teachers, the institution, and society/culture...A chair can still stay upright if ONE ”leg”, such as society weakens, but now add another ”bad leg”, the parents. You’ve got a chair that will in no way stand on it’s own...This is what we are doing to our children by placing all of the responsibility/obligation on teachers and institutions..We as parents must face the music and take blame, not just credit when it comes to preparing children for this world.
(Global Perspectives)
@ Arvind
Please allow me to reverse the order in which I reply to your comments.
“We have been taught a different thing. The purpose of education is not only to ensure livelihood in accordance with our abilities but also to turn us into good human beings with right sort of values. That’s why ”Guru”(read teacher) enjoys a supreme position in Indian society. He is hailed as God in Indian society.”
We obviously grew up with different educational systems, because the teachers were there to reinforce the values we were taught by our parents, family and whatever religious institution we belonged to, not by the schools. This was never part of the education system in the US, where I did my primary and secondary schooling. It was also during a time when parents had not yet abdicated their duties in raising children, leaving everything to the education system.
While teachers were respected back then, they were not conferred with any “God-like” status.
“But why are you creating frustration and disappointment at such an early stage when we are bound to meet them sooner or later? Life is name of tragic incidents. Does that mean we should ask our children to stop smiling and become serious and stupid like adults? An excess of it or those arising out of unreal reasons could prove lethal. Why are so many students committing suicide? I know parents are responsible for deviant behavior in students but that in no way lessen the role of teacher.”
Frustrations and disappointment are part of life from the first time you don’t receive the birthday present you were hoping for, which can even pre-date school age, or the first time a parent can’t take you to see an event or fulfill a promise made due to circumstances beyond their control. To try to appease children in schools would not only be counter-productive, it just won’t work.
Parents are, or should be, the primary role models for children—the child is exposed to the parents at a far earlier age than he is to any teacher, and until a child goes to school, the parents are basically the “masters of their world”. To diminish this responsibility in any way is, in my mind, reducing the parents’ role to that of mere sperm and egg donors.
Have you ever heard of Columbine? Investigations after the fact indicated that the students who went on a shooting spree in their school were “acting out” their frustration about something… and whatever it was, they were incapable of dealing with that frustration in any way other than going on a killing rampage. The fact that their parents and teachers saw nothing indicating what was coming meant that both had fallen down on the job, but the parents most of all.
The world, even at a school-child’s level, is full of competition. Did your school accept every applicant for its cricket or soccer team? Does every child submitting a science project, a poem or a research paper win a prize? Even such peaceful competitions such as chess are still competitions, with a winner and a loser.
How can you isolate children from disappointment and frustration in that atmosphere? Not every debate, sports event, literary competition or chess game can end in a draw, and the loser is bound to be disappointed and frustrated—and has to learn to deal with it at that age, not at some indeterminate time in the future.
This doesn’t mean that children should stop smiling or being children, any more than it means they should stop competing. In sports, we had to learn how to lose gracefully… and just as important, how to win gracefully. This is, or should be, part of the growing-up process, which is the responsibility of both parents and teachers, with the accent on the former rather than the latter.
It seems we place a different weight on the jobs of parents and teachers. I have been both in my lifetime, have you? I’ve also gone through a lot of teachers, some good, some bad, some indifferent, a very few who were excellent, and a few where I learned the subject they taught in spite of the teacher’s efforts, not because of them. The idea that a teacher should be omniscient or omnipotent was never part of the equation.
I can’t comment on the “prestigious schools” part, since I have never been to one. I reached a technician’s rating, practical engineer and graduate engineer’s degree in evening courses after a day’s work, over a period of time double to that of a day student, and still found time to do a business management course as well. All my motivation was internal—the teachers couldn’t have care less if I was in class or absent, or whether I did the assignments or not. The schools set a range of grades, and it was up to the student to meet those criteria. Enrolling in the courses was a contract in which the schools agreed to teach and the student agreed to achieve a certain scholastic level in order to go the distance.
“Well, I have never stated that weaker students be promoted along with their weakness. What I am really trying to suggest is that weakness should not be used as pretext to subject them to discrimination of all sorts. Any sort of discrimination is going to make them prone to psychological disorder.”
But that’s exactly what’s happening in many places. Is it “discrimination” to decide that a student doesn’t have the abilities to become a doctor, lawyer, scientist, engineer or whatever profession the student thinks he might like to pursue? Some people waste their abilities and others strive to achieve things far beyond their abilities—this is the nature of life, since ability and ambition don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand, and institutions usually don’t have the resources to squander on students who can not “finish the course”.
I shudder at the idea of undergoing surgery by an incompetent surgeon, being defended by an incompetent lawyer or driving over a bridge designed by an incompetent engineer. No one is capable of being everything and to try to claim this is just delusional. When a person is “discriminated” (your word) against by being rejected for a course of study for a particular profession or direction, it’s the job of that student’s parents, teachers and guidance counselors to explain why they were “discriminated” against, and search for another direction of study that is within the student’s capabilities and areas of interest.
Please don’t resort to psychobabble, failure to be accepted to the school of your choice will not bring about “psychological disorders” unless the predisposition was already there, so we’re back again to the concept of early education and how to deal with disappointments and frustration. Just as many “brilliant” students are subject to psychological disorders as are students who are “discriminated” against. This, in my mind, negates the claim for the so-called “discriminated” students.
A “good” teacher has to challenge the abilities of their students, and the ones incapable of rising to the occasion and achieve fall by the wayside, just as in “real life”. No teacher is a nursemaid, they are not there to comfort the student each time he stubs his toe or cuts his finger or misses an assignment. This is not their job, and the students should be too old and mature for this kind of treatment in any case. Any teacher who makes it easy for their students is doing them a major disservice (to say the least).
There’s a famous quote from the book “The Paper Chase”, made by a Harvard Law professor, which I think is the essence of teaching, although a bit harsh.
“You teach yourselves the law. I train your minds. You come in here with a skull full of mush, and if you survive, you’ll leave thinking like a lawyer.”
The best teachers will teach you how to think, they will NOT spoon-feed the learning.
Please allow me to reverse the order in which I reply to your comments.
“We have been taught a different thing. The purpose of education is not only to ensure livelihood in accordance with our abilities but also to turn us into good human beings with right sort of values. That’s why ”Guru”(read teacher) enjoys a supreme position in Indian society. He is hailed as God in Indian society.”
We obviously grew up with different educational systems, because the teachers were there to reinforce the values we were taught by our parents, family and whatever religious institution we belonged to, not by the schools. This was never part of the education system in the US, where I did my primary and secondary schooling. It was also during a time when parents had not yet abdicated their duties in raising children, leaving everything to the education system.
While teachers were respected back then, they were not conferred with any “God-like” status.
“But why are you creating frustration and disappointment at such an early stage when we are bound to meet them sooner or later? Life is name of tragic incidents. Does that mean we should ask our children to stop smiling and become serious and stupid like adults? An excess of it or those arising out of unreal reasons could prove lethal. Why are so many students committing suicide? I know parents are responsible for deviant behavior in students but that in no way lessen the role of teacher.”
Frustrations and disappointment are part of life from the first time you don’t receive the birthday present you were hoping for, which can even pre-date school age, or the first time a parent can’t take you to see an event or fulfill a promise made due to circumstances beyond their control. To try to appease children in schools would not only be counter-productive, it just won’t work.
Parents are, or should be, the primary role models for children—the child is exposed to the parents at a far earlier age than he is to any teacher, and until a child goes to school, the parents are basically the “masters of their world”. To diminish this responsibility in any way is, in my mind, reducing the parents’ role to that of mere sperm and egg donors.
Have you ever heard of Columbine? Investigations after the fact indicated that the students who went on a shooting spree in their school were “acting out” their frustration about something… and whatever it was, they were incapable of dealing with that frustration in any way other than going on a killing rampage. The fact that their parents and teachers saw nothing indicating what was coming meant that both had fallen down on the job, but the parents most of all.
The world, even at a school-child’s level, is full of competition. Did your school accept every applicant for its cricket or soccer team? Does every child submitting a science project, a poem or a research paper win a prize? Even such peaceful competitions such as chess are still competitions, with a winner and a loser.
How can you isolate children from disappointment and frustration in that atmosphere? Not every debate, sports event, literary competition or chess game can end in a draw, and the loser is bound to be disappointed and frustrated—and has to learn to deal with it at that age, not at some indeterminate time in the future.
This doesn’t mean that children should stop smiling or being children, any more than it means they should stop competing. In sports, we had to learn how to lose gracefully… and just as important, how to win gracefully. This is, or should be, part of the growing-up process, which is the responsibility of both parents and teachers, with the accent on the former rather than the latter.
It seems we place a different weight on the jobs of parents and teachers. I have been both in my lifetime, have you? I’ve also gone through a lot of teachers, some good, some bad, some indifferent, a very few who were excellent, and a few where I learned the subject they taught in spite of the teacher’s efforts, not because of them. The idea that a teacher should be omniscient or omnipotent was never part of the equation.
I can’t comment on the “prestigious schools” part, since I have never been to one. I reached a technician’s rating, practical engineer and graduate engineer’s degree in evening courses after a day’s work, over a period of time double to that of a day student, and still found time to do a business management course as well. All my motivation was internal—the teachers couldn’t have care less if I was in class or absent, or whether I did the assignments or not. The schools set a range of grades, and it was up to the student to meet those criteria. Enrolling in the courses was a contract in which the schools agreed to teach and the student agreed to achieve a certain scholastic level in order to go the distance.
“Well, I have never stated that weaker students be promoted along with their weakness. What I am really trying to suggest is that weakness should not be used as pretext to subject them to discrimination of all sorts. Any sort of discrimination is going to make them prone to psychological disorder.”
But that’s exactly what’s happening in many places. Is it “discrimination” to decide that a student doesn’t have the abilities to become a doctor, lawyer, scientist, engineer or whatever profession the student thinks he might like to pursue? Some people waste their abilities and others strive to achieve things far beyond their abilities—this is the nature of life, since ability and ambition don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand, and institutions usually don’t have the resources to squander on students who can not “finish the course”.
I shudder at the idea of undergoing surgery by an incompetent surgeon, being defended by an incompetent lawyer or driving over a bridge designed by an incompetent engineer. No one is capable of being everything and to try to claim this is just delusional. When a person is “discriminated” (your word) against by being rejected for a course of study for a particular profession or direction, it’s the job of that student’s parents, teachers and guidance counselors to explain why they were “discriminated” against, and search for another direction of study that is within the student’s capabilities and areas of interest.
Please don’t resort to psychobabble, failure to be accepted to the school of your choice will not bring about “psychological disorders” unless the predisposition was already there, so we’re back again to the concept of early education and how to deal with disappointments and frustration. Just as many “brilliant” students are subject to psychological disorders as are students who are “discriminated” against. This, in my mind, negates the claim for the so-called “discriminated” students.
A “good” teacher has to challenge the abilities of their students, and the ones incapable of rising to the occasion and achieve fall by the wayside, just as in “real life”. No teacher is a nursemaid, they are not there to comfort the student each time he stubs his toe or cuts his finger or misses an assignment. This is not their job, and the students should be too old and mature for this kind of treatment in any case. Any teacher who makes it easy for their students is doing them a major disservice (to say the least).
There’s a famous quote from the book “The Paper Chase”, made by a Harvard Law professor, which I think is the essence of teaching, although a bit harsh.
“You teach yourselves the law. I train your minds. You come in here with a skull full of mush, and if you survive, you’ll leave thinking like a lawyer.”
The best teachers will teach you how to think, they will NOT spoon-feed the learning.
(Global Perspectives)
@Michael
First things first. Many thanks for participating in a debate in such a conscious way with right set of arguments. I really enjoy all the debates that enable me to have new perspective. Unfortunately, debates in our times have become ideal tools to further strengthen their king-size egos!
Coming back to the topic, I feel you are bit correct. But let me add that to bring substantial changes, especially in our times, we need to get above hard-core categorizations. I mean that a teacher has to take care of the role played by the parents. Even parents need to share the role played by the teacher to bring positive changes.
I will restate that it’s a criminal negligence on the part of teachers if they make “ability” a ground to enter in discrimination.
“Is it “discrimination” to decide that a student doesn’t have the abilities to become a doctor, lawyer, scientist, engineer or whatever profession the student thinks he might like to pursue?”
No, it’s not discrimination. I am least interested in honoring incompetent individuals. But do you think all of us are born with same intellectual and emotional abilities? Is the world reserved for most perfect souls? Even both of us are not perfect and if our inabilities are made the tools to downsize our personas what’s going to be the result? Is that’s going to be the ideal way to measure our worth? If we are capable enough to face such taunts and discrimination does that grant others some sort of right to engage in discriminatory behaviour ? Your idea is similar to approach wherein security is beefed up to prevent criminal activities without any attempt to remove the conditions that have led to rise in such activities
I hope you must be aware of the fact all are not born to become doctor, engineer and lawyer .My theory is simple. Please be on par with the interest of a child. If he/she is not on par with the prevalent tendencies don’t make him butt of ridicule. Don’t tell him that you are not fit enough to part of our group. Is it necessary to reveal harsh truths to children ? Even If I agree with your theory that it’s not discrimination to categorize students on basis of their abilities, I wish to ask you what should be the fate of these lesser students ? Should they be discarded like outdated materials? They should be asked to become peons or for that matter turn into hard core criminals because in a civilized society that treats “doctors, engineers and lawyers” as the ultimate representatives of one’s abilities there is no scope for lesser individuals like them. Well, I also wish to know from you why the world that’s now the playground of perfect souls (according to your theory) is fast turning into “hell of another planet”? The world should by now have turned into paradise because, after all, it has become resting place of competent souls. ! Why that has not happened? Or are you trying to prove that frustrations and discriminations of competent souls are of greater value than frustrations and discriminations of incompetent souls?
I read a chapter in my childhood that unfolded scenes from school days of Addison. He was told by his teachers that it’s very difficult to locate another stupid child like him and that he was unfit for doing anything in life. In fact, I have noticed that all exceptional souls have never been part of institutions .A very famous writer has remarked” Thank God I never went to school” .
However, I am not downsizing the role of institutions. I am also not suggesting that abilities should be ignored. In fact, I am at par with your view that all steps should be taken to refine the abilities. I also agree that “Any teacher who makes it easy for their students is doing them a major disservice (to say the least).”
However, having said that, I am of the opinion that equal opportunities should be provided to all the souls that have manifested on this planet. At least, a sincere effort to do the same should be given a chance. I know it’s not that easy but let’s try to make it a possibility.
First things first. Many thanks for participating in a debate in such a conscious way with right set of arguments. I really enjoy all the debates that enable me to have new perspective. Unfortunately, debates in our times have become ideal tools to further strengthen their king-size egos!
Coming back to the topic, I feel you are bit correct. But let me add that to bring substantial changes, especially in our times, we need to get above hard-core categorizations. I mean that a teacher has to take care of the role played by the parents. Even parents need to share the role played by the teacher to bring positive changes.
I will restate that it’s a criminal negligence on the part of teachers if they make “ability” a ground to enter in discrimination.
“Is it “discrimination” to decide that a student doesn’t have the abilities to become a doctor, lawyer, scientist, engineer or whatever profession the student thinks he might like to pursue?”
No, it’s not discrimination. I am least interested in honoring incompetent individuals. But do you think all of us are born with same intellectual and emotional abilities? Is the world reserved for most perfect souls? Even both of us are not perfect and if our inabilities are made the tools to downsize our personas what’s going to be the result? Is that’s going to be the ideal way to measure our worth? If we are capable enough to face such taunts and discrimination does that grant others some sort of right to engage in discriminatory behaviour ? Your idea is similar to approach wherein security is beefed up to prevent criminal activities without any attempt to remove the conditions that have led to rise in such activities
I hope you must be aware of the fact all are not born to become doctor, engineer and lawyer .My theory is simple. Please be on par with the interest of a child. If he/she is not on par with the prevalent tendencies don’t make him butt of ridicule. Don’t tell him that you are not fit enough to part of our group. Is it necessary to reveal harsh truths to children ? Even If I agree with your theory that it’s not discrimination to categorize students on basis of their abilities, I wish to ask you what should be the fate of these lesser students ? Should they be discarded like outdated materials? They should be asked to become peons or for that matter turn into hard core criminals because in a civilized society that treats “doctors, engineers and lawyers” as the ultimate representatives of one’s abilities there is no scope for lesser individuals like them. Well, I also wish to know from you why the world that’s now the playground of perfect souls (according to your theory) is fast turning into “hell of another planet”? The world should by now have turned into paradise because, after all, it has become resting place of competent souls. ! Why that has not happened? Or are you trying to prove that frustrations and discriminations of competent souls are of greater value than frustrations and discriminations of incompetent souls?
I read a chapter in my childhood that unfolded scenes from school days of Addison. He was told by his teachers that it’s very difficult to locate another stupid child like him and that he was unfit for doing anything in life. In fact, I have noticed that all exceptional souls have never been part of institutions .A very famous writer has remarked” Thank God I never went to school” .
However, I am not downsizing the role of institutions. I am also not suggesting that abilities should be ignored. In fact, I am at par with your view that all steps should be taken to refine the abilities. I also agree that “Any teacher who makes it easy for their students is doing them a major disservice (to say the least).”
However, having said that, I am of the opinion that equal opportunities should be provided to all the souls that have manifested on this planet. At least, a sincere effort to do the same should be given a chance. I know it’s not that easy but let’s try to make it a possibility.
(Local Perspectives)
@Michael
A small correction:
”I read a chapter in my childhood that unfolded scenes from school days of Addison”
———-I am talking about Thomas Elva Edison in the above-given line.
A small correction:
”I read a chapter in my childhood that unfolded scenes from school days of Addison”
———-I am talking about Thomas Elva Edison in the above-given line.
(Local Perspectives)
If the minds of the children are so delicate ,than why do we have an overwhelming amount of bad adults
Any form of education is brainwashing, trying to form the mind to the ones most excepted in their culture
If you teach blue is white than that is what your culture will see ,the earth is still a long way from forming minds from their own design and all the mounds of writing about it won’t change a darn thing
Any form of education is brainwashing, trying to form the mind to the ones most excepted in their culture
If you teach blue is white than that is what your culture will see ,the earth is still a long way from forming minds from their own design and all the mounds of writing about it won’t change a darn thing
(Global Perspectives)
If the minds of the children are so delicate ,than why do we have an overwhelming amount of bad adults
Any form of education is brainwashing, trying to form the mind to the ones most excepted in their culture
If you teach blue is white than that is what your culture will see ,the earth is still a long way from forming minds from their own design and all the mounds of writing about it won’t change a darn thing
Any form of education is brainwashing, trying to form the mind to the ones most excepted in their culture
If you teach blue is white than that is what your culture will see ,the earth is still a long way from forming minds from their own design and all the mounds of writing about it won’t change a darn thing
(Global Perspectives)
”trying to form the mind to the ones most excepted in their culture”
Wayne, didn’t you learn the difference between ”except” and ”accept”?
Wayne, didn’t you learn the difference between ”except” and ”accept”?
(Global Perspectives)
Michael
You show the reasons why formal education doesn’t work,looking for grammer errors instead of the message ,i do this all the time and flush people like you out whose minds are so formed by their cultural education they couldn’t hear truth if it hit them in the face, pretenious people like you couldn’t understand the forming of a mind because the ones that formed yours left out the ability to listen, instead you write long winded biased pile of nothing ,you wrote this to force your thoughts on others –oh listen to me i am so bright -how arrogant you are!
now i left grammer errors for you and other petty minds to find and think how smart you are –i told my friend i would test you and you failed ,now go run with the rest of your arrogant friends and mold the world to your purpose
I thought Allen was bad -but you are sneaky bad and the most dangerous
You show the reasons why formal education doesn’t work,looking for grammer errors instead of the message ,i do this all the time and flush people like you out whose minds are so formed by their cultural education they couldn’t hear truth if it hit them in the face, pretenious people like you couldn’t understand the forming of a mind because the ones that formed yours left out the ability to listen, instead you write long winded biased pile of nothing ,you wrote this to force your thoughts on others –oh listen to me i am so bright -how arrogant you are!
now i left grammer errors for you and other petty minds to find and think how smart you are –i told my friend i would test you and you failed ,now go run with the rest of your arrogant friends and mold the world to your purpose
I thought Allen was bad -but you are sneaky bad and the most dangerous
(Global Perspectives)
The difference between ”except” and ”accept” are hardly a matter of grammar, but of communication. Do you actually understand what you wrote?
”Any form of education is brainwashing, trying to form the mind to the ones most excepted in their culture”
According to your sentence, you believe that brainwashing is intended to form minds after the ones NOT accepted in their culture, but the general consensus is that brainwashing is designed to shape the mind to conform to the accepted norms. In other words, you expressed the opposite.
Avoiding miscommunications like this is one of the primary reasons for education. Is this sentence of yours an example of your education?
”Any form of education is brainwashing, trying to form the mind to the ones most excepted in their culture”
According to your sentence, you believe that brainwashing is intended to form minds after the ones NOT accepted in their culture, but the general consensus is that brainwashing is designed to shape the mind to conform to the accepted norms. In other words, you expressed the opposite.
Avoiding miscommunications like this is one of the primary reasons for education. Is this sentence of yours an example of your education?
(Global Perspectives)
MICHAEL
Three kinds of people never receive an Un-familiar truth.
1. Those who know it all/or think they do.
2. Those who expect those who know it ”all” /or think they do: to explain it to them.
3. Those who think the Un-familiar truth, will cost them too much.
boy your smart because you can recognize stupid ,thanks for letting me know i am stupid ,i wonder how you treat other stupid people around you ,do they have any purpose in your brainy world or should we make stupid villages for they
judgemental can’t teach or rule ,god forbid if you do either
I think that knowledge varies very little from one person to the next person just as our genes are nearly completely the same as everyone else’s genes are. We are human and the other person is human no matter how we for one reason or another reason think that he or she isn’t human. I think that we like to think that we are superior in one way or another way over other humans especially when it comes to our intellectual capacity but the scientific facts would indicate that the human spectrum of human intelligence from the smartest to the dumbest of us is really quite small. You see, from the time when we wake in the morning to when we go to bed at night each one of us require nearly the same basic needs. The only difference here is how we choose or are forced to fulfill those basic needs.
Here again, I think we all realize that we are in a world where we as the individuals that we are must face our world not only on the world’s indisputable terms but we must face it on our own terms too. You see, I see us coming into this world alone and living it in the company of many others and then leaving this world alone. So, as I see it while we are here together we may as well make the best of it for those others and for ourselves
one last thing -i hope your god that makes people like you arrogant has a place you all can realize your genius
Three kinds of people never receive an Un-familiar truth.
1. Those who know it all/or think they do.
2. Those who expect those who know it ”all” /or think they do: to explain it to them.
3. Those who think the Un-familiar truth, will cost them too much.
boy your smart because you can recognize stupid ,thanks for letting me know i am stupid ,i wonder how you treat other stupid people around you ,do they have any purpose in your brainy world or should we make stupid villages for they
judgemental can’t teach or rule ,god forbid if you do either
I think that knowledge varies very little from one person to the next person just as our genes are nearly completely the same as everyone else’s genes are. We are human and the other person is human no matter how we for one reason or another reason think that he or she isn’t human. I think that we like to think that we are superior in one way or another way over other humans especially when it comes to our intellectual capacity but the scientific facts would indicate that the human spectrum of human intelligence from the smartest to the dumbest of us is really quite small. You see, from the time when we wake in the morning to when we go to bed at night each one of us require nearly the same basic needs. The only difference here is how we choose or are forced to fulfill those basic needs.
Here again, I think we all realize that we are in a world where we as the individuals that we are must face our world not only on the world’s indisputable terms but we must face it on our own terms too. You see, I see us coming into this world alone and living it in the company of many others and then leaving this world alone. So, as I see it while we are here together we may as well make the best of it for those others and for ourselves
one last thing -i hope your god that makes people like you arrogant has a place you all can realize your genius
(Global Perspectives)
I can see both viewpoints, but let me explain what is happening in my country.
S.E.P., secretary of public education (they also must certify private schools, so their ”rulings are not just for public schools as their title states) implemented this system of ”non-competition, no discriminative grades roughly 5 years ago in Mexico.
Teachers cannot give grades lower than a 6 (deficiant, but not failing) and children can not ”flunk”, or be held back a grade. Red pens are not allowed in grading as red traditionally means ”incorrect” . When a teacher grades papers, EVERY question or formula must be marked.. Correct recieves a check mark, incorrect recieves an ”X”..that way children will not be traumatized by seeing only X’s if their work is poor.
They won’t be traumatized by not passing a class, and they won’t be traumatized by not staying at ”par” and progressing to another grade after the school year with their peers.
There are always two sides to a coin.
What has happened is disasterous!
On one side, children are not ”psychologically dejected, traumatized.” On the other side, these same children have nothing to strive towards, everyone is equal:
From there comes another problem. Academic grades are not just a sign of intelligence:
1)by taking grades from the system there are kids who really do have learning disabilities that will never be helped. They won’t get the extra guidance or treatments or evaluations which are necessary for them to continue learning and progressing...because all kids are equal, thus there is no reason to look into WHY they might be different.
2)If all children are the same, many children, and trust me, both my wife and I are teachers, become apathetic: Why study, why do homework, why pay attention..why try? ”I’ll get the same result either way.”
This system causes many lazy parents to become even more lazy with thoughts such as: ”well as long as my kid passes and keeps progressing all is well.”
The problem is when these same children have been in this system, where all is good and all are equal want to enter prepatory school, after 12 years of unbiased grading, they get struck down.
Children have killed themselves because they can’t pass the entrance exam to continue their education (starting in Prepa, the S.E.P. rule, no longer applies. Imagine 12 years of thinking ”I’m ok, I’m right on par with my peers” and all of a sudden they are cut off without warning...THIS IS TRAUMA, THIS IS CRUEL.
As a parent, I know my children..Each one is different. I want to know EXACTLY how my children are progressing, not just that they are ”passing.” It’s kind of like being ill: Okay, I’m sick, but HOW sick? Did I do something to bring this sickness on? Can I do something to cure my sickness? Am I sick or am I dying? What is this diagnosis based on? What tests were given to diagnose me? Are their alternative/prevenative meds? and the list goes on and on......at least for me, concerning MY children.
This has also caused a drastic change in the quality of teachers...Less qualified teachers are allowed in, as the job becomes ”easier, per se.” (All teachers must be certified, but of course all teachers are not alike: The same with students.
If choosing a teacher for your child would you choose anyone who had a teaching degree, or one that really had a way of TEACHING kids, making them eager to learn....A good teacher isn’t one that can answer all of your kids questions, but one that can stimulate your child to think and to ASK questions, to continue striving..Another sign of a good teacher is one that realizes that each classroom, each child IS DIFFERENT, thus will strive to teach in the best way those or that particular child LEARNS.
We are losing good teachers, because we are no longer allowed to take notice in each students INDIVIDUALITY:
As for parents of our students we are seeing a mixture of everything and everything:
We have parents who are afraid their kids are being HINDERED by other students.(by not being able to capture the subjects like their peers, by behavioral problems, etc..)
WWe have other parents who don’t understand the severity of their childs academic deficiancies, after all, there are no real grades to show them.
And there are parent swho are just damn happy to have someone take their child off their hands for 7 hours a day. These parents claim it is a teachers job to foster ALL emotional, psychological, moral, academical responsibilities of their child..
I know this comment is long and rambling, but I have so much I want to express on this subject and don’t quite know how to put it into words.
NO CHILD SHOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST..but by making all equal, we are crippling these children..
S.E.P., secretary of public education (they also must certify private schools, so their ”rulings are not just for public schools as their title states) implemented this system of ”non-competition, no discriminative grades roughly 5 years ago in Mexico.
Teachers cannot give grades lower than a 6 (deficiant, but not failing) and children can not ”flunk”, or be held back a grade. Red pens are not allowed in grading as red traditionally means ”incorrect” . When a teacher grades papers, EVERY question or formula must be marked.. Correct recieves a check mark, incorrect recieves an ”X”..that way children will not be traumatized by seeing only X’s if their work is poor.
They won’t be traumatized by not passing a class, and they won’t be traumatized by not staying at ”par” and progressing to another grade after the school year with their peers.
There are always two sides to a coin.
What has happened is disasterous!
On one side, children are not ”psychologically dejected, traumatized.” On the other side, these same children have nothing to strive towards, everyone is equal:
From there comes another problem. Academic grades are not just a sign of intelligence:
1)by taking grades from the system there are kids who really do have learning disabilities that will never be helped. They won’t get the extra guidance or treatments or evaluations which are necessary for them to continue learning and progressing...because all kids are equal, thus there is no reason to look into WHY they might be different.
2)If all children are the same, many children, and trust me, both my wife and I are teachers, become apathetic: Why study, why do homework, why pay attention..why try? ”I’ll get the same result either way.”
This system causes many lazy parents to become even more lazy with thoughts such as: ”well as long as my kid passes and keeps progressing all is well.”
The problem is when these same children have been in this system, where all is good and all are equal want to enter prepatory school, after 12 years of unbiased grading, they get struck down.
Children have killed themselves because they can’t pass the entrance exam to continue their education (starting in Prepa, the S.E.P. rule, no longer applies. Imagine 12 years of thinking ”I’m ok, I’m right on par with my peers” and all of a sudden they are cut off without warning...THIS IS TRAUMA, THIS IS CRUEL.
As a parent, I know my children..Each one is different. I want to know EXACTLY how my children are progressing, not just that they are ”passing.” It’s kind of like being ill: Okay, I’m sick, but HOW sick? Did I do something to bring this sickness on? Can I do something to cure my sickness? Am I sick or am I dying? What is this diagnosis based on? What tests were given to diagnose me? Are their alternative/prevenative meds? and the list goes on and on......at least for me, concerning MY children.
This has also caused a drastic change in the quality of teachers...Less qualified teachers are allowed in, as the job becomes ”easier, per se.” (All teachers must be certified, but of course all teachers are not alike: The same with students.
If choosing a teacher for your child would you choose anyone who had a teaching degree, or one that really had a way of TEACHING kids, making them eager to learn....A good teacher isn’t one that can answer all of your kids questions, but one that can stimulate your child to think and to ASK questions, to continue striving..Another sign of a good teacher is one that realizes that each classroom, each child IS DIFFERENT, thus will strive to teach in the best way those or that particular child LEARNS.
We are losing good teachers, because we are no longer allowed to take notice in each students INDIVIDUALITY:
As for parents of our students we are seeing a mixture of everything and everything:
We have parents who are afraid their kids are being HINDERED by other students.(by not being able to capture the subjects like their peers, by behavioral problems, etc..)
WWe have other parents who don’t understand the severity of their childs academic deficiancies, after all, there are no real grades to show them.
And there are parent swho are just damn happy to have someone take their child off their hands for 7 hours a day. These parents claim it is a teachers job to foster ALL emotional, psychological, moral, academical responsibilities of their child..
I know this comment is long and rambling, but I have so much I want to express on this subject and don’t quite know how to put it into words.
NO CHILD SHOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST..but by making all equal, we are crippling these children..
(Global Perspectives)
Oscar
After reading your well thought our and compassionate post about eduction and the best for all children makes me sad knowing your in the wrong time and place on earth ,if we had more people that took time to think it out and cared about the children’s future our adults would be more productive and less selfish
You weren’t rambling and it was put as right as right can be, but unfortunately not many will understand or care ,I Hear you and understand your concern even if i am only one –keep up the good thoughts-p.s. forgive my bad grammer as i try to catch people that look to proper grammar and not the message ,there is only a few that are strong enough to not let it bother them
After reading your well thought our and compassionate post about eduction and the best for all children makes me sad knowing your in the wrong time and place on earth ,if we had more people that took time to think it out and cared about the children’s future our adults would be more productive and less selfish
You weren’t rambling and it was put as right as right can be, but unfortunately not many will understand or care ,I Hear you and understand your concern even if i am only one –keep up the good thoughts-p.s. forgive my bad grammer as i try to catch people that look to proper grammar and not the message ,there is only a few that are strong enough to not let it bother them
(Global Perspectives)
Dear Wayne:
I wonder how bitter you will be after being rejected for a job or a place in a school when your application cover letter asks them to ”please except me for consideration”.
Nowhere in my posts did I call you ”stupid”. However, if you feel that it fits, that’s your business, not mine.
I wonder how bitter you will be after being rejected for a job or a place in a school when your application cover letter asks them to ”please except me for consideration”.
Nowhere in my posts did I call you ”stupid”. However, if you feel that it fits, that’s your business, not mine.
(Global Perspectives)
Michael
There was a thousand words written and you found the ones i planted and can’t get them off your mind ,don’t you think that that shows you ego and cultural brainwashing on your mind that two little words caused the thousand other wards to vanish , no wonder we can’t write piece agreements
people like you came to life empty and then with no say by you ,the dna and position on earth allowed you to become educated and think your special and have to speak for all the weaker minds, looking down and thinking your so charitable like taking care of children ,but if one bucks your thought it is your duty to let them know they are dumb and your smart ,until people stop thinking their smarter than others and show respect than live on earth will always be in chaos
now lots of grammer errors for you and your friends to have fun with
There was a thousand words written and you found the ones i planted and can’t get them off your mind ,don’t you think that that shows you ego and cultural brainwashing on your mind that two little words caused the thousand other wards to vanish , no wonder we can’t write piece agreements
people like you came to life empty and then with no say by you ,the dna and position on earth allowed you to become educated and think your special and have to speak for all the weaker minds, looking down and thinking your so charitable like taking care of children ,but if one bucks your thought it is your duty to let them know they are dumb and your smart ,until people stop thinking their smarter than others and show respect than live on earth will always be in chaos
now lots of grammer errors for you and your friends to have fun with
(Global Perspectives)
Well, Wayne, I guess I’ll just put you on my list of excepted posters.
(Global Perspectives)
MICHAEL
well like i said people that look for spots of imperfection will only find imperfection ,and your mind forming by the stronger around you didn’t provide the important art of listening
logic listens and learns and hears all peoples equally, never wavering and always gets the last word
now me ex spot you will fend my mistakes
and enjoy your feeling of narcissism
well like i said people that look for spots of imperfection will only find imperfection ,and your mind forming by the stronger around you didn’t provide the important art of listening
logic listens and learns and hears all peoples equally, never wavering and always gets the last word
now me ex spot you will fend my mistakes
and enjoy your feeling of narcissism
(Global Perspectives)
@Wayne
I should also thank you foe adding new dimensions in the whole discussion. It’s not very easy to grasp essence of your comment but a close reading does reveals the actual purport of your comments Keep visiting with such ”off the track” remarks. I don’t know about others but I do have a place for such remarks with their actual purport...
I should also thank you foe adding new dimensions in the whole discussion. It’s not very easy to grasp essence of your comment but a close reading does reveals the actual purport of your comments Keep visiting with such ”off the track” remarks. I don’t know about others but I do have a place for such remarks with their actual purport...
(Local Perspectives)
@ Arvind
I have to agree with Oscar. All attempts to “level the playing field” have been a disastrous failure all around. He makes many valid points, and they are not only true for Mexico. I’ve chatted with teachers from such diverse locations as the US, UK, Brazil, Argentina, Canada and Israel who make pretty much the same points.
I have to agree with Oscar. All attempts to “level the playing field” have been a disastrous failure all around. He makes many valid points, and they are not only true for Mexico. I’ve chatted with teachers from such diverse locations as the US, UK, Brazil, Argentina, Canada and Israel who make pretty much the same points.
(Global Perspectives)
@ Michael& Oscar
Both you and Oscar have come up with thought-provoking reply. The points raised by both of you have enabled me to view the issue in various perspectives.
But gentlemen I feel that you both have grossly misinterpreted the actual purport of my article. I myself hate mediocrity. I am aware of the fact that if talent is not given its due then it’s bound to give rise to ”bunch of fools”.
However, I am sure that to honour talent or ability is quite a different thing. Discrimination, in the name of making way for the talented souls, can never be tolerated. That’s why I asked Michael(and he didn’t answer): ” Even If I agree with your theory that it’s not discrimination to categorize students on basis of their abilities, I wish to ask you what should be the fate of these lesser students ? Should they be discarded like outdated materials? But do you think all of us are born with same intellectual and emotional abilities? Is the world reserved for most perfect souls? Even both of us are not perfect and if our inabilities are made the tools to downsize our personas what’s going to be the result? Is that’s going to be the ideal way to measure our worth? If we are capable enough to face such taunts and discrimination does that grant others some sort of right to engage in discriminatory behaviour ?”
@Oscar
My fiend Oscar I am not trying to make everyone equal by hook or crook. I have never suggested that a fool should be honoured like a genius. I am only suggesting that let their inabilities be not used as tool to downsize their personalities. If they are treated as ”outdated things” they are bound to become cause of worry for society in future. However, if extra effort is made show them the right path, which cannot be done without active and constructive role of parents, they can be back on track. However,if they are discriminated and ignored all possibilities of improvement become zero .Is that’s a way to deal with lesser souls ?
I have asked ” Well, I also wish to know from you why the world that’s now the playground of perfect souls (according to your theory) is fast turning into “hell of another planet”? The world should by now have turned into paradise because, after all, it has become resting place of competent souls.”
Oscar, if you have an answer do tell me?
Well, I have never suggested ”placement in these prestigious institutions”. I know,being by-product of such an institution, that these have nothing better to offer other than extracting money from parents on various pretexts.
”I have seen children of poor indigens with no books, huddled together in a 7m2 dirt floored shack with a teacher no older than my oldest son (he’s 22) excel to unimaginable heights. Leaving both their parents, communities, and myself in awe.”
I have similar experience.
But then your response is devoid of reality. Even a labourer is not interested in having his child in a Sarkari’(government school).Why? Why all the parents are interested in having their wards in some ”St.Mary” or ” St.Thomas”-the so-called prestigious schools ?
Why are Indian students so interested in having a degree from a foreign university (read Harvard or Cambridge etc.)?It has been proven that by-product( I mean Indian scholars ) of these colleges have failed to make any significant contribution for India.
Needless to state, we have learnt the art of honouring discrimination. That’s bound to invite disastrous consequences.
Both you and Oscar have come up with thought-provoking reply. The points raised by both of you have enabled me to view the issue in various perspectives.
But gentlemen I feel that you both have grossly misinterpreted the actual purport of my article. I myself hate mediocrity. I am aware of the fact that if talent is not given its due then it’s bound to give rise to ”bunch of fools”.
However, I am sure that to honour talent or ability is quite a different thing. Discrimination, in the name of making way for the talented souls, can never be tolerated. That’s why I asked Michael(and he didn’t answer): ” Even If I agree with your theory that it’s not discrimination to categorize students on basis of their abilities, I wish to ask you what should be the fate of these lesser students ? Should they be discarded like outdated materials? But do you think all of us are born with same intellectual and emotional abilities? Is the world reserved for most perfect souls? Even both of us are not perfect and if our inabilities are made the tools to downsize our personas what’s going to be the result? Is that’s going to be the ideal way to measure our worth? If we are capable enough to face such taunts and discrimination does that grant others some sort of right to engage in discriminatory behaviour ?”
@Oscar
My fiend Oscar I am not trying to make everyone equal by hook or crook. I have never suggested that a fool should be honoured like a genius. I am only suggesting that let their inabilities be not used as tool to downsize their personalities. If they are treated as ”outdated things” they are bound to become cause of worry for society in future. However, if extra effort is made show them the right path, which cannot be done without active and constructive role of parents, they can be back on track. However,if they are discriminated and ignored all possibilities of improvement become zero .Is that’s a way to deal with lesser souls ?
I have asked ” Well, I also wish to know from you why the world that’s now the playground of perfect souls (according to your theory) is fast turning into “hell of another planet”? The world should by now have turned into paradise because, after all, it has become resting place of competent souls.”
Oscar, if you have an answer do tell me?
Well, I have never suggested ”placement in these prestigious institutions”. I know,being by-product of such an institution, that these have nothing better to offer other than extracting money from parents on various pretexts.
”I have seen children of poor indigens with no books, huddled together in a 7m2 dirt floored shack with a teacher no older than my oldest son (he’s 22) excel to unimaginable heights. Leaving both their parents, communities, and myself in awe.”
I have similar experience.
But then your response is devoid of reality. Even a labourer is not interested in having his child in a Sarkari’(government school).Why? Why all the parents are interested in having their wards in some ”St.Mary” or ” St.Thomas”-the so-called prestigious schools ?
Why are Indian students so interested in having a degree from a foreign university (read Harvard or Cambridge etc.)?It has been proven that by-product( I mean Indian scholars ) of these colleges have failed to make any significant contribution for India.
Needless to state, we have learnt the art of honouring discrimination. That’s bound to invite disastrous consequences.
(Local Perspectives)
@ Oscar.
I agree with you, it is the responsibility of the parents. As for the ’guru’ thing, well, the current situation in India is quite different from what it used to be. Now a guru (read teacher) is just concerned about the amount of money s/he makes per month. These gurus force students to take private coaching from them, and if they refuse, they are doomed.
As for the question asked in this article, if we end the discrimination based on marks, we will end up having a bunch of fools graduating every year.
I agree with you, it is the responsibility of the parents. As for the ’guru’ thing, well, the current situation in India is quite different from what it used to be. Now a guru (read teacher) is just concerned about the amount of money s/he makes per month. These gurus force students to take private coaching from them, and if they refuse, they are doomed.
As for the question asked in this article, if we end the discrimination based on marks, we will end up having a bunch of fools graduating every year.
(Local Perspectives)
@Aneez
Thanks for reading my post.Yes, both Oscar and Michael have given a whole new meaning to the issue raised by me.Their sincerity and seriousness cannot be doubted even as I feel that their replies have missed the mark.
Aneez I am aware of the fact that Gurus have ”Apna Sapna Money Money ” as the ultimate goal of life! No wonder why even ”Chelas” or ”Shishyas” are setting new standards in a wrong way.However,the role of teacher cannot be undermined.
Coming back to the theme, I hope you must have seen the movie Jo Jeeta Wohi Sikander.It provides a brilliant contrast between two different world of students.See the movie and realize that if weaker students aren’t projected as failures they have the talent to beat the so-called ”bunch of exceptionally talented souls”.
Thanks again for leaving a realistic response.
Thanks for reading my post.Yes, both Oscar and Michael have given a whole new meaning to the issue raised by me.Their sincerity and seriousness cannot be doubted even as I feel that their replies have missed the mark.
Aneez I am aware of the fact that Gurus have ”Apna Sapna Money Money ” as the ultimate goal of life! No wonder why even ”Chelas” or ”Shishyas” are setting new standards in a wrong way.However,the role of teacher cannot be undermined.
Coming back to the theme, I hope you must have seen the movie Jo Jeeta Wohi Sikander.It provides a brilliant contrast between two different world of students.See the movie and realize that if weaker students aren’t projected as failures they have the talent to beat the so-called ”bunch of exceptionally talented souls”.
Thanks again for leaving a realistic response.
(Local Perspectives)
ANEEZ
When it comes to woman and their superficial beauty ,you seem to know a lot, but on education you are empty ,all peoples are equal fools, beauty ,lovers smart, stupid any combination ,but you falling pray to nature you would and micheal would want all others gone as to leave smart people like you and micheal
Want you and Michael’s brains are too primitive to see is knowledge is needed for nature to further her genes -nothing more
now you too can huddle together and talk about how smart you are
eduction failed because the same children you educated have grown up to be bad adults ,and over it goes again
When it comes to woman and their superficial beauty ,you seem to know a lot, but on education you are empty ,all peoples are equal fools, beauty ,lovers smart, stupid any combination ,but you falling pray to nature you would and micheal would want all others gone as to leave smart people like you and micheal
Want you and Michael’s brains are too primitive to see is knowledge is needed for nature to further her genes -nothing more
now you too can huddle together and talk about how smart you are
eduction failed because the same children you educated have grown up to be bad adults ,and over it goes again
(Global Perspectives)
An out-of-context remark but still related with the whole issue in an interesting way :
Why are we not marginalizing women by pointing out their disabilities?Why discrimination is not tolerated against them?Why are we providing them equal playing field?
Why are we not marginalizing women by pointing out their disabilities?Why discrimination is not tolerated against them?Why are we providing them equal playing field?
(Local Perspectives)
@Arvind:
”I have asked ” Well, I also wish to know from you why the world that’s now the playground of perfect souls (according to your theory) is fast turning into “hell of another planet”? The world should by now have turned into paradise because, after all, it has become resting place of competent souls.”
Oscar, if you have an answer do tell me?”
First, I think it is important to state : I don’t have a ”THEORY”, I can only speak of what I know, from living and working within a non-grade/mark system
much like what your post is referring to..Or maybe I completely, after reading it many times, did not catch the true spirit and debate within your post..If that is what happened, I apologize.
Next, my observations, NEVER stated grades/mark create competence, thus it can not be said my observations having anything to do with creating a ”Well, I also wish to know from you why the world that’s now the playground of perfect souls (according to your theory) ....
In fact, while staunchly beleieving in a grade/marks system I was attempting to make it known, that from my own personal view, it helps to LIMIT DISCRIMINATION AND PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA within children.
Maybe our educational systems are too different, and that may be where the confusion is...
In Mexico, we have many types of schools: we have government, private, private religious, bilingual, bi-cultural, technical, vocational and various other types. Of course in primary and secondary (the first 9 years, excluding kinder) the education is by and large the same, they are ALL governed by the Secretary of Education and must adhere to a strict program ad course guide, only in electives and complimentary classes do they vary..
During this time, the grade system is, in my opinion, extremely important, if not dire. This is where the foundation will be laid for ALL future learning. This is where INDIVIDUAL needs must be met, therefore constant evaluation is of utmost importance.
Maybe your post is more geared towards superior education such as PREPA or University.., but in Mexico, even for superior learning, we don’t cast students aside..
There are many options for those who really want to learn, and in the Prepa is where groups may be formed differently to allow each child to consider at his pace..There are advanced groups, average, and tutored groups.. There is also Technical, Vocational, to insure the opportunity experiment with what one may want for the future and more advanced education (university)...
Sadly, society seems to think ”Luxurious equates Prestigious, the prettiest and most expensive school is the best education type of mentality..That is not true.
Like I said before, a good teacher, who loves teaching, will create great students who love learning..from there, the skies the limit....But Society, I feel is discriminating, by placing certain institutes above others by way of material..
So
”I have asked ” Well, I also wish to know from you why the world that’s now the playground of perfect souls (according to your theory) is fast turning into “hell of another planet”? The world should by now have turned into paradise because, after all, it has become resting place of competent souls.”
Oscar, if you have an answer do tell me?”
First, I think it is important to state : I don’t have a ”THEORY”, I can only speak of what I know, from living and working within a non-grade/mark system
much like what your post is referring to..Or maybe I completely, after reading it many times, did not catch the true spirit and debate within your post..If that is what happened, I apologize.
Next, my observations, NEVER stated grades/mark create competence, thus it can not be said my observations having anything to do with creating a ”Well, I also wish to know from you why the world that’s now the playground of perfect souls (according to your theory) ....
In fact, while staunchly beleieving in a grade/marks system I was attempting to make it known, that from my own personal view, it helps to LIMIT DISCRIMINATION AND PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA within children.
Maybe our educational systems are too different, and that may be where the confusion is...
In Mexico, we have many types of schools: we have government, private, private religious, bilingual, bi-cultural, technical, vocational and various other types. Of course in primary and secondary (the first 9 years, excluding kinder) the education is by and large the same, they are ALL governed by the Secretary of Education and must adhere to a strict program ad course guide, only in electives and complimentary classes do they vary..
During this time, the grade system is, in my opinion, extremely important, if not dire. This is where the foundation will be laid for ALL future learning. This is where INDIVIDUAL needs must be met, therefore constant evaluation is of utmost importance.
Maybe your post is more geared towards superior education such as PREPA or University.., but in Mexico, even for superior learning, we don’t cast students aside..
There are many options for those who really want to learn, and in the Prepa is where groups may be formed differently to allow each child to consider at his pace..There are advanced groups, average, and tutored groups.. There is also Technical, Vocational, to insure the opportunity experiment with what one may want for the future and more advanced education (university)...
Sadly, society seems to think ”Luxurious equates Prestigious, the prettiest and most expensive school is the best education type of mentality..That is not true.
Like I said before, a good teacher, who loves teaching, will create great students who love learning..from there, the skies the limit....But Society, I feel is discriminating, by placing certain institutes above others by way of material..
So
(Global Perspectives)
@Oscar
Your sensitivity has always evoked a deep regard for you and your comments. Keep venturing into such enlightening zones to provide all of us a pleasure to view things from a fresh perspective.
”I can only speak of what I know” ...Yes, anything that emanates from the bed of experience is hard to ignore. Since I too love to speak straight from the heart, I can safely conclude that sometimes it’s necessary to rise above the beaten track to bring desired changes. When all are thinking alike, it means that nobody is thinking. Let’s agree to disagree...
Your sensitivity has always evoked a deep regard for you and your comments. Keep venturing into such enlightening zones to provide all of us a pleasure to view things from a fresh perspective.
”I can only speak of what I know” ...Yes, anything that emanates from the bed of experience is hard to ignore. Since I too love to speak straight from the heart, I can safely conclude that sometimes it’s necessary to rise above the beaten track to bring desired changes. When all are thinking alike, it means that nobody is thinking. Let’s agree to disagree...
(Local Perspectives)
@ Arvind:
“That’s why I asked Michael (and he didn’t answer): ‘Even If I agree with your theory that it’s not discrimination to categorize students on basis of their abilities, I wish to ask you what should be the fate of these lesser students? Should they be discarded like outdated materials? But do you think all of us are born with same intellectual and emotional abilities? Is the world reserved for most perfect souls? Even both of us are not perfect and if our inabilities are made the tools to downsize our personas what’s going to be the result? Is that’s going to be the ideal way to measure our worth? If we are capable enough to face such taunts and discrimination does that grant others some sort of right to engage in discriminatory behaviour?’
Actually, I thought I had answered it. First of all, I don’t think it’s really “discrimination”, just as I don’t fully agree with your use of the word “apartheid” in this context.
There has to be some kind of qualitative method of evaluating students, if only to help those who have learning disabilities. Most schools in my experience make the effort to adjust the class populations in succeeding grades to be as homogenous as they can in ability for a number of reasons. If you have a diverse class with “slow”, average and “fast” students, class discipline become impossible for a teacher to cope with. When the teacher concentrates on the “slow” students, the “fast” ones become bored and disrupt learning. If they concentrate on the “fast” ones, the “slow” ones become lost and disruptive. If the teacher concentrates on the average students, both the “slow” and “fast” ones can become disruptive. This makes learning impossible for all the students.
Teaching students with learning disabilities requires special qualifications on the part of the teacher. There are only a limited number of these “special education” teachers available and placing them in classes with a diverse student population is a waste of a specialized and limited resource.
Is it “discrimination” to group students with learning abilities in a classroom to provide them with the special tools and resources they need to overcome those disabilities? I don’t think so.
= = =
No, I don’t think anyone should be “discarded”, but I do think that both parents and teachers who treat everyone as if they have the same intellectual and emotional abilities are deluding themselves and those they teach or parent, because people don’t have the same abilities. Each person is an individual with a greater or lesser degree of emotional and intellectual ability and has to grow into the persona they feel comfortable in. Sometimes, as with learning, you do this either because of the teacher or despite the teacher.
= = =
I wasn’t aware that anybody was perfect, or that the world was “reserved” for anyone. Each of us makes their place in the world.
= = =
Bullying and insults should never be a teacher’s tool, nor should it be a tool of superiors in the workplace, but it is sometimes, because people are fallible and some of them aren’t very nice. That’s why there are anti-harassment laws and means of redress.
= = =
Finding and developing one’s own persona is something you do on your own time, not in school and not in the workplace. If you’re comfortable with who and what you are, then taunting shouldn’t bother you. Insults are like alcoholic drinks… they only affect you if you accept them.
“That’s why I asked Michael (and he didn’t answer): ‘Even If I agree with your theory that it’s not discrimination to categorize students on basis of their abilities, I wish to ask you what should be the fate of these lesser students? Should they be discarded like outdated materials? But do you think all of us are born with same intellectual and emotional abilities? Is the world reserved for most perfect souls? Even both of us are not perfect and if our inabilities are made the tools to downsize our personas what’s going to be the result? Is that’s going to be the ideal way to measure our worth? If we are capable enough to face such taunts and discrimination does that grant others some sort of right to engage in discriminatory behaviour?’
Actually, I thought I had answered it. First of all, I don’t think it’s really “discrimination”, just as I don’t fully agree with your use of the word “apartheid” in this context.
There has to be some kind of qualitative method of evaluating students, if only to help those who have learning disabilities. Most schools in my experience make the effort to adjust the class populations in succeeding grades to be as homogenous as they can in ability for a number of reasons. If you have a diverse class with “slow”, average and “fast” students, class discipline become impossible for a teacher to cope with. When the teacher concentrates on the “slow” students, the “fast” ones become bored and disrupt learning. If they concentrate on the “fast” ones, the “slow” ones become lost and disruptive. If the teacher concentrates on the average students, both the “slow” and “fast” ones can become disruptive. This makes learning impossible for all the students.
Teaching students with learning disabilities requires special qualifications on the part of the teacher. There are only a limited number of these “special education” teachers available and placing them in classes with a diverse student population is a waste of a specialized and limited resource.
Is it “discrimination” to group students with learning abilities in a classroom to provide them with the special tools and resources they need to overcome those disabilities? I don’t think so.
= = =
No, I don’t think anyone should be “discarded”, but I do think that both parents and teachers who treat everyone as if they have the same intellectual and emotional abilities are deluding themselves and those they teach or parent, because people don’t have the same abilities. Each person is an individual with a greater or lesser degree of emotional and intellectual ability and has to grow into the persona they feel comfortable in. Sometimes, as with learning, you do this either because of the teacher or despite the teacher.
= = =
I wasn’t aware that anybody was perfect, or that the world was “reserved” for anyone. Each of us makes their place in the world.
= = =
Bullying and insults should never be a teacher’s tool, nor should it be a tool of superiors in the workplace, but it is sometimes, because people are fallible and some of them aren’t very nice. That’s why there are anti-harassment laws and means of redress.
= = =
Finding and developing one’s own persona is something you do on your own time, not in school and not in the workplace. If you’re comfortable with who and what you are, then taunting shouldn’t bother you. Insults are like alcoholic drinks… they only affect you if you accept them.
(Global Perspectives)
@ Michael
It’s time to bid adieu to this discussion.I must thank you from the core of the heart for participating in the whole debate with with incisive and mature replies.I look forward to your comments on my other posts.
Though I do not endorse all your observations,I still feel that what you have said cannot be outrightly rejected.
”No, I don’t think anyone should be “discarded”.... Each person is an individual with a greater or lesser degree of emotional and intellectual ability and has to grow into the persona they feel comfortable in.....”
......So let’s make the earthly journey of all the children fruitful and meaningful.Let they be not humiliated and rejected but accepted whole-heatedly with or without abilities !!
It’s time to bid adieu to this discussion.I must thank you from the core of the heart for participating in the whole debate with with incisive and mature replies.I look forward to your comments on my other posts.
Though I do not endorse all your observations,I still feel that what you have said cannot be outrightly rejected.
”No, I don’t think anyone should be “discarded”.... Each person is an individual with a greater or lesser degree of emotional and intellectual ability and has to grow into the persona they feel comfortable in.....”
......So let’s make the earthly journey of all the children fruitful and meaningful.Let they be not humiliated and rejected but accepted whole-heatedly with or without abilities !!
(Local Perspectives)
A well known poet was invited to read his latest composition .He came up to the microphone and began :
”Two shirts and two pantaloons .”
Wah !Wah ! came the applause.
”Three vests and a sari ,” continued the poet.
”Wah!Irshad,” came the applause .
The poet stopped, turned over the notebook and exploded ,” What the hell you are applauding for ?Instead of my poetry book ,I have brought the washer man’s account book.”
”Two shirts and two pantaloons .”
Wah !Wah ! came the applause.
”Three vests and a sari ,” continued the poet.
”Wah!Irshad,” came the applause .
The poet stopped, turned over the notebook and exploded ,” What the hell you are applauding for ?Instead of my poetry book ,I have brought the washer man’s account book.”
(Local Perspectives)
Arvind
Thanks for great post and utmost respect for all contributors
Your point above is correct ,you can condition people even before knowing what their point is as to react to perception and that kills truth
Thanks for great post and utmost respect for all contributors
Your point above is correct ,you can condition people even before knowing what their point is as to react to perception and that kills truth
(Global Perspectives)
Add your Comment
We need to make educational patterns student friendly.Let’s not subject them to killer instincts or for that matter make them susceptible to survival of the fittest.I am saying so because their minds are too tender to adapt to such unholy patterns in a proper way.